Subjects: illegal immigrants.
E&OE................................
MITCHELL:
Mr Howard, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, Neil.
MITCHELL:
What has happened today so far?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, arrangements to get medical assistance to those who may need it on the Norwegian vessel are well in hand and we hope to be saying something further about that later in the day. We stand ready to provide medical assistance - food, fresh water, things of that kind. It's a very important humanitarian consideration and we're very anxious that that medical assistance and that additional help be rendered available as soon as possible. There have been some logistic challenges involved in that but I think they're now in control. And, as I say, I hope to be saying something further about that later in the day.
MITCHELL:
Is there an urgent need for it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we don't know. The information we have is that the Royal Flying Doctor Service had been in touch with some of the people on the vessel and whilst nobody's suggesting that there aren't some illnesses, there's always the possibility that some of the reports about those illnesses can be inaccurate.
MITCHELL:
Okay, there were reports that two people are unconscious, you don't know if that's right.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that has not been verified and it may not be right. It might be but it may not be. It is often the case, in a situation like this, that you do get exaggerations and you have to know, from people who have actually spoken to people on the vessel or been there, precisely what the situation is.
MITCHELL:
There have also been diplomatic talks today, what's happened with them?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, they continue. At this stage the Indonesians are disinclined to take the people back and we continue to talk to them. We continue to convey our position to the Norwegian authorities. Our position is that it is not Australia's responsibility to take these people. They were picked up in a search and rescue zone for which Indonesia was responsible. The vessel does not have any Australian citizens on board. The port of nearest feasible disembarkation was Merak, an Indonesian port. It is just simply not possible to berth this vessel at Christmas Island, quite apart from any of the diplomatic or other considerations and I think that point has to be emphasised again and again. It's not a question of what is the nearest port, sailing time wise, it's a question of where is the nearest place of feasible disembarkation.
MITCHELL:
But it would be possible to get them off there, wouldn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Very difficult logistically but that is a practical consideration. Merak is 12 hours steaming time from where the vessel was last night and our view remains very strongly.this vessel left Fremantle bound for Singapore, it intended, after it picked up these people, it intended to go to Merak from whence the people had come and under duress the Captain changed his position. Now that remains, in our view, a very important element in this whole issue.
MITCHELL:
In what sense? I mean, under duress.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, no, the fact that they came.I mean, all of the things that I've just said - the fact that they came from Indonesia, it was an Indonesian vessel, it had an Indonesian crew and there are no Australian citizens on board. Of course there are some Norwegian citizens and it's a Norwegian flagged vessel, the Tampa. But under our interpretation of the international law applicable it is appropriate that they be returned to Indonesia.
MITCHELL:
Clearly it is a problem for Australia because they've asked to land here, that becomes a problem for Australia. What do we do if Indonesia and Norway continue to refuse to accept them?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don't want to, at this stage, hypothesise, Neil, it's not really productive. I can but state what our position is and we are quite resolved in relation to that position. We will, of course, continue to provide all the humanitarian help we can, consistent with the logistical challenges that are involved. But it has to be understood that we have taken a very large number of unauthorised arrivals. We have a situation here were there are particular circumstances applying to these people. Under international law we are not under an obligation and I don't think anybody can suggest that we are a heartless, insensitive, unsympathetic country.
MITCHELL:
Did you weigh up any moral obligation?
PRIME MINISTER:
We weighed up a lot of.all the considerations, the legal and the moral and they're very difficult. This is not an easy decision because if you continue to send a signal to the world that no matter what the circumstances we will always take people, more will come.
MITCHELL:
There is a possibility, obviously in this situation, if it drags out, that we could be looking at the deaths of some people. Are you prepared to go that far?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look, I'm just at this stage, Neil, I don't want anybody to lose their life but I would make the point that if the ship's master had been allowed to do what he originally intended to do these people would now be in Indonesia. I mean, in the end there has to be a situation where I have a capacity to argue on behalf of Australia but there are responsibilities thrown on other people. I mean, there is a point in some of these things where people, in a way, seek to intimidate us with our own decency and that creates a very awkward position for a Prime Minister of this country and for the Government of this country. We don't want a single death of anybody. We also have to understand the long-term consequences of creating a situation where, for practical purposes, we lose control of our capacity to determine who comes to this country and in what circumstances. And the very stretched capacity we have.our detention facilities are now at breaking point as far as capacity is concerned. They really are and that is because we've had far more unauthorised arrivals than we had originally thought likely. And the reason for that in turn is that our laws are regarded as lax by international standards and in turn one of the reasons for that is that our political opponents have blocked in the Senate over the years some changes that would have made it less attractive a couple of years ago to come to this country. I mean, you're dealing here with a pipeline that in part has been influenced by the fact that we weren't able, because of the blockage of that legislation in the Senate by our opponents, not able to make it less attractive for people to come in the first place.
MITCHELL:
Is it your information that there is a hunger strike underway on board this vessel?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, there have been some reports to that effect.
MITCHELL:
What's your reaction to that, is that moral blackmail?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, in many cases hunger strikes have been used in the past as moral blackmail, of course they have. I mean, I have to and the Government has to weigh up those sorts of things. My reaction as an individual is that I am distressed when I hear stories like that. I'm distressed at the difficult situations of women, children, men.
MITCHELL:
The conditions must be awful on board.
PRIME MINISTER:
The conditions are very difficult, although it is a very large vessel. I've spoken to somebody who's been on a sister ship. He tells me that if this is the same, and he believes it is, it's a roll on, roll off vessel. It is, therefore, very large. Obviously the conditions on it would be very cramped, very uncomfortable, very unattractive but probably not as bad as some of the conditions on some of the vessels that these people have been on previously.
MITCHELL:
Is the crew safe?
PRIME MINISTER:
I beg your pardon?
MITCHELL:
Is the crew safe?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, they have indicated at this stage, through the messages we've received, that they don't have any alarm about their physical safety, no.
MITCHELL:
Is that an issue for Australia if the crew is not safe?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, obviously we would listen to any requests that they might make but they're not seeking any.my advice, as I speak, is that they're not seeking any protection or any help from Australia in relation to their safety, let me put it that way.
MITCHELL:
Are these people pirates, have they hijacked the ship?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I'd have to get some careful advice from an international lawyer before I characterise them and I have to be careful because of the diplomatic sensitivities of the situation. But, plainly, they were rescued under the law of the sea convention. Being people in distress, the Norwegian vessel did the right thing under international law and common humanity - they rescued them. Then having rescued them the captain was apparently, under duress, forced to go or forced to turn around from the port that he intended to go to which was to return them to the place they'd come from which was the proper thing to do, the right thing to have happened. And that in a sense is what has created this dilemma, not what Australia has done.
MITCHELL:
How long can Australia tolerate a stand off.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look, you will understand I'm not going to speculate. I'm not going to get into trying to answer that situation. We will continue to talk to the Indonesians and the Norwegians. We'll continue to stand ready to provide medical assistance and food and the like because that is what we want to do from a moral stand point. Quite apart from any international legal obligation. But it should be understood that we are dealing here with a situation where increasingly our capacity in practice to control the entry of people into this country is being undermined by the increasing flow of unauthorised arrivals superimposed upon the humanity of a nation that always tries to do the right thing. And we have to try to achieve a better balance between our humanity and decency on the one hand, yet our undoubted right as a nation expected of us by our people to control the entry of people into this country.
MITCHELL:
Is it correct that if a person was taken off the ship to be treated on Australian territory they are entitled to claim asylum and can't be put back?
PRIME MINISTER:
That's very debatable.
MITCHELL:
Can I ask a broader question. Is the 1951 Convention on Asylum is it time to rewrite it? Is it out of date?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think a number of countries are starting to think that. I don't want to try to rewrite an asylum convention in the heat of a particular issue such as this but these arrivals have highlighted a special problem for a country like Australia. It is an attractive country. It's very stable. Many people want to come here. But can I just say Neil as a local member almost every week I write back to a constituent saying that the Government can't approve the entry of that constituent's relative or friend into this country because they don't comply with the requirements of our law and they don't fall into an available category. And every time somebody comes here in an unauthorised fashion and dint of sitting out the legal process finally gets accepted, you are undermining your whole system. And on top of that we take through the United Nations High Commission for Refugees, we take thousands of refugees every year and according to the High Commission for Refugees the people we take are assessed by them as being in the greatest need of sanctuary in a country like Australia. That's the great .. I mean that is the other moral dimension. And you are dealing here with the activities of people smugglers there's no doubt about that.
MITCHELL:
Have the people on this ship now given up the right to be considered for refugee status?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't know their original status.
MITCHELL:
. the right to consideration?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well our view is that everybody should take their turn in the queue and they should be processed through the UNHCR which does a magnificent job and unless you have an orderly refugee programme which is based on fair assessment, you undermine the whole integrity of the programme.
MITCHELL:
Without Indonesian/Malaysian cooperation these refugees wouldn't be here.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there is no doubt in the world that they are able to, as it were, easily transit through other countries. I mean that is a fact.
MITCHELL:
Did you raise this with Megawati?
PRIME MINISTER:
I did raise it. I raised it with a number of her ministers. And our view is that we would be willing to provide significant financial help to Indonesia to build a detention centre in that country or some kind of facility. We're prepared to pay for that. We're prepared to give the money to an international agency which in turn would give it to Indonesia. We understand that Indonesia, although it might have a legal obligation to stop people using it as a transit point, we understand that Indonesia is not well-off. We're willing to accept a big financial responsibility. We've made that very clear and that remains our position. But until we can reach some accommodation with Indonesia, until there's a message sent to the world that you can no longer pass with ease through Indonesia and come to Australia, until that message is sent to the world we're going to continue to have an enormous problem and we're going to continue to have our refugee programme undermined.
MITCHELL:
Are we in fact paying Indonesia something at the moment over this issue?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think we are providing some financial help yes.
MITCHELL:
Do you know how much?
PRIME MINISTER:
No I don't. But we have offered. We are paying something yes, but I'm not quite sure how much. But our position is we understand Indonesia can't afford to build it. We would like it to build that facility. We would be happy to help in a very generous way financially because we understand Indonesia's difficult financial position but that . the key is really ending the flow and the flow is through Indonesia because of a combination of circumstances including the free movement of people from Islamic countries to Malaysia.
MITCHELL:
I guess the way Indonesia's handling this issue doesn't hold out a great deal of hope for you does it? Their attitude on this particular case wouldn't hold out a great deal of hope for cooperation on stopping the flow.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we continue to persevere and I've learnt from past experience in dealing with Indonesia that it's a question of perservering. We are sympathetic to their position. I mean I understand Indonesia's a very big population and has an enormous number of internal problems. And that's why we're willing to accept a big part of the financial responsibility. We'll continue to talk with the Indonesians. Their disposition at this stage is not to have the people back. But our position remains that they should because that's where they came from. It was in an Indonesian search and rescue area. And the original vessel came from Indonesia. There are Indonesian citizens on board the Tampa. So when you add all of those things together and also it was the intention - the first intention of the ship's master was to take them back to Indonesia. When you add all of those things together there's a very strong case. And our view, not only morally but also in international law, is for Indonesia to take these people back. We obviously would be willing to help in relation to this particular group, quite apart from the financing of the larger facility, we'd be willing to help financially. But it has to be understood by the Australian public, and I hope it is, that a country like Australia with a large coastline and being very attractive, if the view becomes entrenched around the world that it's easy to get into this country we will have an enormous problem. We will have an unbelievable problem in trying to control our borders.
MITCHELL:
So this is a message to the world.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's certainly a message to the world that we are not a country of easy destination. We are a country that welcomes people from all around the world. We are a country that has done more than its fair share in relation to refugees. And a country that wants to go on doing it. But it's got to be done in a proper fashion where the most necessitous cases are given the first opportunity to be received into our country.
MITCHELL:
Prime Minister thank you very much for your time.