Subjects: Ryan by-election, pension payments, economy, BHP merger, superannuation, dental health, humanitarian programmes
E&OE................................
MILLER:
Mr Howard, good morning to you, sir.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, John. It's very good to be back talking to your listeners.
MILLER:
Well, you've been spending a lot of time in Brisbane of late.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but we planned to have a Cabinet meeting yesterday in Brisbane weeks ago. And I'm spending some time in the seats of Petrie and Dickson and then I'm going north to Cairns later in the week, and I'm also going to the Gold Coast tomorrow. So I am spending a lot of time in Queensland but I always do. I like coming to Queensland. People are always very friendly.
MILLER:
Well, the reception's been particularly hot for your party. If we look at the outcome of the State election, we look at the very, very close result in Ryan and the latest figures we're seeing there is that it is still very, very close and only a possibility that Bob Tucker will get in. Have you learnt lessons, have you listened to what's being said.
PRIME MINISTER:
You always learn lessons from swings that big and you've got to keep them in perspective. We have to explain what we're on about better than we have in the past and we have to make sure that when we change things for the overall good of the country, people who are effected by those changes are protected as much as you can. No country can stand still. We have reform and change because that's the only thing that can protect our long-term living standards and generate jobs, but in the process we have to make sure that people who are effected by that change are protected as much as possible. But the answer is not to turn your back on change, the answer is not to retreat into protective economic isolation, that just won't work.
MILLER:
We'll talk a little bit about the massive merger of BHP a little later. But staying closer to the grassroots issues and one that is a grave concern to a lot of our listeners is the pension payment which goes up by 2%, is it, today? The Labor Party.
PRIME MINISTER:
It goes up by $7.90 today, a fortnight, for a single pensioner. There is no cut in the pension.
MILLER:
The Labor Party's calling it clawback day.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the Labor Party has run a quite despicable fear campaign designed to frighten elderly, vulnerable people. I think it is despicable that the alternative Prime Minister of this country and Wayne Swan, his spokesman, should run a campaign designed deliberately to upset, unsettle and disconcert elderly people. They know that we're not cutting the pension. They know we're not clawing back. They know that what happened was that some of the increase due today was paid nine months ago and all that's happening is we're not paying it twice.
Now, if I owe you $100 in July and I pay it to you now instead of in July, you don't demand it of me again in July, you'd like it again in July but you don't demand it of me. You don't say, well you haven't paid it. I mean, this is quite despicable what the Labor Party is doing on this. They know, they voted for the compensation package. And when they're asked - if you win Government Mr Beazley will you increase the pension by the amount you say the Government clawed back? He says, oh no, no, I can't be expected to answer that question, you know, I'm the Leader of the Opposition, I can't be asked to say that. The reason he won't commit his government to do that is that he knows there's been no clawback. He knows that we haven't short changed pensioners. What we did was to pay something nine months before it was due to further protect people against the impact of the introduction of the goods and services tax. And it really is unfair, dishonest and quite despicable of the Labor Party to scare people. I mean, by all means get stuck into me, by all means have a go on the hustings but to scare elderly, vulnerable people by falsely alleging that their pension is being cut is wrong.
MILLER:
So at the end of the day you say that what pensioners will be getting today amounts to, or what they've already received and what they will get today amounts to the fact that they're not going backwards and yet.
PRIME MINISTER:
Certainly, not only are they not going backwards, they are actually always going to be 2%, in real terms, ahead of cost of living increases as a result of the increases that have occurred over the past few months.
MILLER:
Why then are we seeing the pensioners and superannuants league coming out saying that they have an increasing number of pensioners now having to seek help from charities.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, one of the reasons for that is the fear campaign that is being run by the Labor Party. And another reason for that is that people will always argue that the level of compensation should be more. But it cannot be fairly said that we're cutting the pension, that we're clawing things back. All we are doing is avoiding the double payment of something that, although due today, was paid nine months earlier.
MILLER:
Mr Beazley last night on the 7.30 Report said you're not listening, you're not learning and he said you're actually pinching his policies. He got fairly touchy when Kerry O'Brien said, well okay, what policies and what are you actually going to do. Mr Beazley says that he's not going to do that until he sees the books because he doesn't know what state the nation's going to be left in.
PRIME MINISTER:
He says I'm pinching his policies but what policies. He doesn't have any. I mean, Mr Beazley's position at the moment is as Leader of the Opposition he's into all the negativity there is. He's having some easy pickings at the present time because governments that are reform governments always have some teething troubles with the introduction of new policies like the GST. But there will come a time when people will see the choice between Mr Beazley and myself as being between a person who's tried to improve the country by undertaking, in difficult circumstances, major reforms and an Opposition Leader who has sat on the sidelines and nitpicked. And he left us with an $85 billion Government debt and he has blocked, or tried to block and obstruct every single attempt that we have made to repay that debt. The hallmark of the Beazley years were 11% unemployment, 17% interest rates and a Government debt of $85 billion. We have at least had a go at tackling the country's problems.
MILLER:
Sure. You keep saying we're better off or we're ahead.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we are better off.
MILLER:
But when I get people on the phone here they keep telling me constantly that they're not, they're constantly finding it harder to balance their own books.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well John, I can talk generally of the country's economic situation. I can point out that we have much lower interest rates than we used to have. It is far easier to pay off a home now than it was five years ago. Now, that's a pretty basic thing for an Australian. It's $270 a month less to service your mortgage. Can I say that again, $270 a month less to service your mortgage than it was five years ago. Now, that's pretty important. The real wages of workers, that is the amount you get over the inflation rate through a wage increase, those real wages are higher now than they were five years ago. They have, in fact, gone up more under a Liberal Government - the workers have got higher wages under a Liberal Government than they got under the Hawke-Keating Government. The Hawke-Keating Government used to boast about how they cut real wages. We have, in fact, increased real wages and, on top of that, you've got lower interest rates. So if your wage is going up and you've got lower interest rates then you must be better off.
MILLER:
Let's move on now to the BHP situation, the mega merger there. They say that they are going to headquarter the company in Melbourne but I guess there are no assurances or have you been given any assurances.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I saw the Chairman, Mr Argus, and the Managing Director, Mr Anderson, on Friday when they briefed me in advance of the announcement. They assured me that the company would be headquartered in Melbourne. We spent some time talking about the corporate arrangements and that's the assurance they've given and I believe them. I've always found them fairly straightforward men to deal with. There's an enormous presence in Australia under this plan of a huge resource company. I think it will be the largest resource based company in the world. For people who are worried about Australia becoming a branch office or a branch economy, a branch office in the world economy, it's not a bad outcome. I welcome it very warmly because as one of the headlines said this morning - the even bigger Australian, or the even larger Australian. Isn't it good to see an Australian company going abroad, spreading its wings, becoming an even bigger international player. That's a great performance for a country of 20 million people
MILLER:
Well the expert opinion I've been getting this morning, certainly from Michael Pinnock from the Mining Council here in Queensland, mining being so fundamental, and from other economic commentators I've heard is that it's overwhelmingly positive but they do harbour doubts that long term that the company will stay in Australia.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I can only repeat what the assurances were. I can only express the view that once the head office is established in Melbourne and the pattern is there it will become increasingly difficult for the head office to be shifted. And I will certainly be reinforcing the very strong view of the Government that the company's headquarters should remain permanently in Melbourne. That is the corporate home of BHP, it is the logical place for the world headquarters of this company to be and we will certainly be pushing that view very strongly on the company and on all concerned.
MILLER:
Now in the Australian this morning they're talking about dental health - 'Rot sets in for the nation's teeth' says the headline. Apparently it's saying that the public dental waiting lists have blown out to about 500,000 following axing of the public dental scheme in 1996. I now it's a quantum leap to talk from BHP to teeth.
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't mind that. I know, I've read the article. Well I would say that is something the state governments have got to do something about. I saw the other day that Michael Egan, the New South Wales Treasurer, was boasting that he had a budget surplus and he would be able to give some tax cuts. Well if he's got all that money he ought to do something about that. In Queensland the Beattie Government will be the first beneficiary of all the state governments in Australia of increased revenues from the GST. Either next year or the year after Queensland's financial position will be better off as a result of the GST. It will be the first cab off the rank. We've guaranteed all the states under existing arrangements and on information I have at the moment it will either be next year or more likely the year after. It's al little bit hard to say exactly which. But certainly quite early in the piece for Queensland. Dental health was always something accepted by the states. There was a program, a four-year program to deal with the backlog introduced by the Keating Government and it ran for the four years. We didn't terminate it, we just didn't renew it because it was a one off program. And when you have a new tax arrangement where you're going to give all the GST revenue to the states the purpose of that is to give them more money over the years ahead to pay for basic services. So it's a contradiction in terms for them to turn around and say look we'll take all the extra money but we still want the Commonwealth to pick up the bill for different things. You can't have it both ways. And whatever the Labor premiers, whatever Kim Beazley have said about the GST those Labor premiers love it. Peter Beattie and Bob Carr knocked each other over to sign the agreement because they know that in the long run they will get the money. I mean the hypocrisy of the Labor Party over the GST is breathtaking. They bag it everyday but they're not going to get rid of it.
MILLER:
All right. Why don't we take a couple of calls because we've got a couple of people on the line now. Line 5 is Delise. Good morning Delise.
CALLER:
Good morning.
MILLER:
You have the Prime Minister.
CALLER:
Good morning Prime Minister. I'm inquiring whether the superannuation scheme for politicians is going to stay as it is or whether it is going to come into line with the rest of the country?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well aspects of it are under review. It is not similar to other schemes in a number of respects. There are some aspects of it that are more generous, there are other aspects of it that require greater contributions. The average contribution that a member of Parliament makes to the superannuation scheme is 11% of his or her salary for most of the time that you are a member of Parliament. If you're a very long serving member that will fall to a lower level after a long number of years. I don't know of many if any people in the corporate sector who make a contribution of 11% out of their salary. So whilst it is true that some of the end benefits are more generous it is equally true that the up front contributions are much higher.
MILLER:
You can understand people's cynicism though when they see the giant payouts, when they see people being able to access it. I mean this is one of those issues that just keeps coming and up and up all the time and it increases.the general feeling, I think you would agree out there Prime Minister in the electorate, a general feeling of cynicism, and you know the wish in the electorate to put a pox on both your houses I guess.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I understand that there is criticism. I can only try and deal with them on a factual basis. I don't know that many people realise that the level of contribution - I mean, I don't know how many people listening to this programme contribute 11% of their salary towards their superannuation. Do you or do any of the employers of this radio station?
MILLER:
Good question, I have no idea.
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't know either but my understanding is that 11% is way above the community average. Now, yes there are aspects, other aspects of it that are more generous than other people get but you've got to set them off against the level of the contributions.
MILLER:
Do you get what I'm coming to, though, when I say that we see things like Bill O'Chee and we see John Moore resigning and forcing a by-election on the people of Ryan and that just constantly reinforces the attitude that I get time and time again that they really are very cynical, they don't believe that we are being governed for the people, they believe we're being governed for the party, if you know what I mean.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I think that is unfair because there are a lot of people who make, because of the sort of careers and professions they have, do make sacrifices when they go into Parliament. I don't think anybody could argue that people holding senior ministerial office are remunerated anywhere near as well as many people in the media, as many people in business and as many people in the professions. I mean, look at the salaries paid to the average managing director in Australia. It is way in advance of what is paid to somebody like the Federal Treasurer. Now, I'm not saying that he needs a pay rise. He's not saying he needs a pay rise. I'm not saying any of us do. All I'm saying is that if you're going to look at things like superannuation you have to look at the whole thing. And it's very easy to have a swipe at people and it's part of the Australian character to have a go and that's fair enough. I mean, I'm used to that and I understand that and I just try and deal with things on a factual basis. And if you look at the aggregate remuneration of members of Parliament, particularly of people who hold senior ministerial office and whatever side they're on, they work very hard and they carry very heavy responsibilities and if you look at the remuneration they receive it's certainly good and it's certainly adequate and they don't deserve - I'm not saying they should be paid any more. I'm just making the point that when you take it all into account it is not unreasonable, compared with the sort of salaries that people in business and certain sections of media command.
MILLER:
I'm not arguing with the facts but what I'm arguing is that, .
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that's a very interesting admission. Thank you very much.
MILLER:
No, I'm not going to argue your facts, as I said, but what I am going to argue is the perception because I know that out there they're sitting there listening to you saying, oh come on PM, pull the other one. You know, it's the perception that they have and how do you deal with that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, one of the reasons is to try and explain the facts and I thank you for saying that you're not arguing those facts. I mean, it is difficult because it's very easy and it's part of the Australian character, no matter who's the Prime Minister. And this is something that - the spray is bipartisan. Everybody.
MILLER:
Well, it is, it really is.
PRIME MINISTER:
I understand that. But John, look, I'm not disagreeing with it, I'm being very direct with you. The only way I can deal with perceptions that are adverse is to try and explain the facts. I mean, the best way to deal with an adverse perception is to try and explain the facts. Now, that explanation may not be accepted and no doubt a number of your listeners are nodding their heads and saying I'm not accepting it, but I can do no more than try and explain the facts.
MILLER:
All right, look, we've got three more calls that I want to try and get in before we finish up at 8.30 if we can. First of all let's go to Doug on line 7. Hello, Doug.
CALLER:
G'day.
MILLER:
Yes, you have the Prime Minister.
CALLER:
Good morning, Mr Howard, how are you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Very well.
CALLER:
Just a bit on the superannuation. I think what the people out here are a bit cranky about is the fact that pollies can walk away with it before age 55. That's one issue. The other issue is that as a self-employed person in the building industry I'm contributing a huge percentage of my income to superannuation, a hell of a lot more than 11% because my income is down over the last 12 months because of the state of the building industry. Any comments?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, do you get any tax relief for that contribution?
CALLER:
Well, considering the level of my income at the moment it's probably not worth it, you know.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't, I'd have to know. I mean, you're talking about, I mean, we were talking about a 11% contribution after tax.
CALLER:
Yeah, I mean, that's a piddling amount.
PRIME MINISTER:
What, after tax, 11% after tax?
CALLER:
Yeah, I'm probably contributing about 30% of my income.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, but you would be getting a tax benefit from that, wouldn't you?
CALLER:
Well, it's 15%, isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, you're being taxed at a concessional rate. I don't know what your marginal rate is but you'd still be getting a concessional rate on that.
CALLER:
Yeah, that's the point. My tax on superannuation is actually higher than my income tax at the moment because our income's so low.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, well, I mean look, you know your own tax position and I won't argue with you on that but I'm simply making the point that the contributions I was talking on were after tax contributions and contributions out of after tax money.
CALLER:
That might sound like a lot when you consider that the average employer puts in 8%. That's terrific but there's a lot of us out here who are actually contributing a lot more than that and we're still stuck with the same rules as those.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, the big complaint you have about this is the early, is the 55.
MILLER:
That, as I understand it, is Doug's big complaint but, okay, well, we've addressed that. Let's move on because I do want to try and get these other two people on, they've been very patient. Good morning to Bob.
CALLER:
Good morning.
MILLER:
Yes, Bob.
CALLER:
Mr Howard, good morning sir. I'm sick of all this negativity. I think from a personal point of view you've done a marvellous job for the country and I don't think the average Australian realises it. I'm mid 50s to early 60s. I'm a homeowner, brought up children. I've never been better off in all my life. And if Mr Beazley wants to down cry the country like he's been doing, I have no time for him or his party.
MILLER:
Well, there you go. That's Uncle Bob, is it, Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I have a brother Bob and he votes Labor. No, thank you very much. I think the gentlemen makes a very valid point and I hope everybody heard it. I think he's dead right.
MILLER:
Yeah, okay, obviously you would. Hello, Gay, good morning.
CALLER:
Good morning. I agree with the last guy. I think you've done a fantastic job. And, of course, we've all got one or two things that we're not happy about. I can remember what it was like under Labor. But the question I want to ask is, why are we giving money to people like Yasser Arafat who's killing off millions of people around him and people like, say, Indonesia where the minute that we look like we're going to do anything wrong they go against us?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, as far as Yassa Arafat's concerned, we are not giving a lot. We are giving some to the United Nations' relief effort in Palestine, which is looking after the health of the Palestinian children. I have seen some of the programmes. I was there last year. It's only a few million dollars a year and from a humanitarian point of view I think it is money well spent. They are children living in very crowded conditions. Fortunately their health is good and it's a credit to the programmes in which many Australians are involved that that's the case. Indonesia, we do give some aid to Indonesia but once again I defend that because Indonesia is our nearest neighbour. It is not in our interest for Indonesia to fall apart economically or socially.
MILLER:
All right. Prime Minister, we are out of time. One of the things - well, we usually wind up with a bit of a yarn about cricket. What about Matty Haydon?
PRIME MINISTER:
Absolutely magnificent. I'm quite sure every Queenslander would be swelling with pride. He's fought back tremendously. Really, a couple of years ago, a lot of people felt, oh gee, what a shame, he got in and then he didn't quite make it and he was dropped. But he's a very gritty player and he has had a super tour, a really fantastic tour. He's come through in this Indian tour and it's not easy touring India - the weather, the playing conditions.
MILLER:
And the hero worship apparently is extraordinary.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, it's quite arduous and it's very challenging and it's a great tribute to his character as well as his playing skill.
MILLER:
All right, Prime Minister, thanks for your time this morning and sorry to the callers who didn't make it. I understand you're off to share the podium with Peter Beattie this morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
I am indeed. We're launching a drug initiative.
MILLER:
Fantastic. All right, Prime Minister, thanks for your time again.
[Ends]