Subjects: Fiji; Solomon Islands; reconciliation
E&OE ...
PRIME MINISTER:
How are you?
CORDEAUX:
I'm very well. And you Sir?
PRIME MINISTER:
I couldn't be better.
CORDEAUX:
I see that you've made the decision not to send the police into Honiara. Now why did you do that? There is a kind of feeling that maybe Australia should be the policeman of this part of the world.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don't think we should hold ourselves out as being the policemen of this part of the world. I don't think small Pacific Island countries like the idea of Australia presuming to rule the roost as the policeman of the region. I think we have to accept our responsibilities. What we want to happen in the Solomon Islands is for the matter to be resolved domestically. I don't know the precise position at the moment. I along with you would have heard the interview this morning on the ?AM' Program where the Malaitan Leader claimed that some kind of understanding had been reached and the Prime Minister was going to be released from detention and that the matter would go to parliament and presumably be resolved in a constitutional way. Now it is certainly the hope of the Australian Government that that happens. We can't in any way remove our condemnation of the coup that's taken place. But we do welcome the possibility that the country may be returning to constitutional government and that's what we want. And what we've been arguing all along is that the matter should be resolved without bloodshed, domestically, internally without foreign intervention. And the reason why we did not accede to the request of the Prime Minister to send Australian police was that we didn't think that would aid the process of the matter being resolved domestically.
And we're also concerned that we might be exposing the Australian police to an unacceptable risk. We understand in all of these situations that there's a risk but no Australian Prime Minister ought ever commit Australian personnel whether they're defence personnel or police personnel to a situation of unacceptable risk and that's what we were worried about. But things seem to have moved on from there and whilst as I say I don't have great deal more to go on other than the interview, I'll be getting a further briefing after this interview, it does appear as though the situation has evolved to the extent that there is possibly a return to constitutional rule. Now that doesn't absolve the people involved in the coup from blame but the aim of the game is to restore democracy and constitutional processes, well it sounds better today that it was yesterday.
CORDEAUX:
Do you think we're looking at some kind of a domino effect with these events following each other?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't think there's any direct connection but the problems are similar. I mean in Fiji the fundamental problem is the tension between the indigenous Fijians and the Indians, both groups of which are equal citizens and should be treated equally and democratically. And what the indigenous Fijians are arguing for is an undemocratic outcome. In the Solomon Islands the dispute and the tension, the ethnic tension is between the Malaitans and those from the Guadalacanal area. And that is basically the polarisation within the community and that is something in the end that can only be resolved by them.
You don't go into another country without invitation or without legal sanction. You remember in East Timor in the end we came there with the legal authority of the mandate of the United Nations and the consent of the Government of Indonesia. People have to remember that knee jerk insertions of Australian personnel into countries simply because they're requested by the government of a particular country unless you're completely satisfied about all the circumstances can be dangerous. And I'm quite sure the measured but supportive role that Australia has played in the Solomon Islands is the right role. It's not always the right thing to do to respond to every request you get, you have to look at the quality of that request and you have to ask yourself is it going to make the situation better. And our assessment when we had that request was that that was not necessarily so and that's why we didn't accede to it. We have agreed to pay for the increased international police presence. We have given quite a lot of aid. We now have a team along with the New Zealanders in Honiara and Mr Downer I understand could be going to the Solomon Islands - it will depend a bit on how events described this morning unfold. So we are doing a lot. We're being criticised as we always are on everything by the Labor Party but it seems that their foreign policy is automatically the opposite of what ours is.
CORDEAUX:
Well it's not so much sending the people in it's working out some sort of strategy to get them out and when you get them out.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you never send Australian personnel anywhere unless you have an exit strategy. I mean I'm not going to ever be party to an arrangement where you send people in without having thought carefully through what's involved in getting them out. And in the end my responsibility above everything else is to the national interest and that of course includes the safety of Australian civilians and the safety of Australian defence and police personnel and I'm not going to expose them to an unacceptable risk. But I hope that the developments this morning indicate that there's some return to normalcy. But we don't of course approve of the way in which a change if it comes about has been effected. But if in the end it's done in a way that's ultimately legal and democratic and constitutional, well that's better than what appears to be occurring in Fiji.
CORDEAUX:
The Commonwealth sanctions against Fiji, do you think they're severe enough or a bit like a slap with a wet lettuce leaf?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well you always have a dilemma with sanctions. Do you impose them with a view to bringing about a change or do you impose them without regard to their ultimate consequences? Fiji is by our standards a quite poor country. It's already suffering economically. Textile workers are being laid off. Now in the end some kind of sanctions will be necessary of the type that Mr Downer's described. We rather hope that it might be possible for sanity to prevail before that becomes necessary because sanctions never have a quick effect. People think, oh slam some sanctions on and you'll bring down the government, the dictator will resign sort of generically speaking and all will be returned to normal. It never works like that. They go on for months, years often. People work out ways of getting around them. You then get complaints from people in your own business community and others say well look we accepted the need for them but our competitors from other countries are getting around it because their governments don't impose them. They are very complicated. They leak, but in the end they are the only weapon that a disapproving world has and we've made it plain that we're prepared to impose sanctions in Fiji. The timing of the imposition of them is something that has to be judged according to how events unfold in that country.
CORDEAUX:
That Monday morning after the walk across the Sydney Harbour Bridge for the Reconciliation thing. It may interest you to know that in the one and a half hours between say eight thirty and ten that we took many, many phone calls in praise of your stance on that. And in fact some of the callers were volunteered that they were Labor voters but they agreed whole heartedly with your position in not saying sorry.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I've said sorry but I don't believe the Government should give a formal national apology. I am sorry about any past injustices inflicted on indigenous people and I saw the march or the walk across Sydney Harbour Bridge as being by and large an expression of public support for reconciliation. I support reconciliation but I am not in favour of a formal national apology for the reason that the present generation should not accept responsibility for the alleged misdeeds of an earlier one. But I can express personal sorrow about those things and regret that they happened and the determination as the Leader of the Government to address on going Indigenous disadvantage.
CORDEAUX:
I would have thought profound regret would have been a much more hearty apology than just saying sorry.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it may sound you know the thing gets a bit lost in the semantics of it. But it is more than semantics. I mean and I can't do other than express my position. It's not just my position alone, it's the position of the Government.
CORDEAUX:
That is the position of the Australian people because if you do sign some sort of treaty and it opens up Pandora's box of litigation and compensation and that kind of thing, it will go on for generations.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the whole notion of a treaty is a different thing again and my concern about a treaty is that is conjures up the notion of two nations. And we are not two nations. I thought the whole idea of reconciliation was to make us one nation. And there is no doubt that if you concede the principle of some negotiation towards a treaty or an agreement, a compact, whatever you want to call it, you are in effect saying there are two sides to the negotiating process and one side makes claims and the other side either makes claims or responds to those claims and if you are to get an agreement you end up with a compromise. Now I don't think that is the way to build a sense of unity in the community. I think what you have to do is to recognise that there is still on going disadvantage, that as a group in the community Aboriginals and Torres Strait Islanders are still very disadvantaged and you try sensibly to address that disadvantage. You try and get more jobs, you try and improve their health standards and they are still way below, although there have been some significant improvements, the health standards of Aboriginal people are still way below those of the general community and that is not acceptable and it's something about which we all should be ashamed. But that's a present day thing that we can grab hold of and do something about. And I think our energy should be directed towards those sorts of things and acts of practical reconciliation. Now that's a view I've had for a very long time. I suspect some of your listeners agree with me and some of them think I should go further. I think the direction we're going is appropriate. We are very sensitive to Aboriginal disadvantage but we don't accept the arguments about a formal national apology.
CORDEAUX:
Prime Minister, I am involved with several different charities and I have been approached by other charities. They are all very nervous about the GST. It's only weeks away.
PRIME MINISTER:
I think it's a good thing that it is only weeks away and in a sense it's one of those things that no matter what is now said, people who are a bit nervous are probably going to remain nervous until it actually happens.
CORDEAUX:
Yeah,
PRIME MINISTER:
And when it actually happens, many of them will find that it's no where near as difficult as they have been lead to believe by some.
CORDEAUX:
People are worried that and I understand that the donation is not affected to a charity. They are worried that a sponsor who comes along to say on the variety club bash will give so much money, say five hundred dollars and he'll have his logo on the car. That's kind of like sponsorship rather than a donation.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well of course there is a bit of a commercial. I mean you've got to make a judgement as to whether he really is just giving a donation or in fact buying some kind of commercial advantage.
CORDEAUX:
Well yes, it's the association he is buying. But what about, what about say auctions where most charities run a charitable auction.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there are provisions in relation to fund raising activities generally and I mean obviously if you're engaging in a transaction which is, even though the proceeds may go in a particular direction, there's some kind of commercial transaction we've got to, you've got to ensure that that's within the net. But what we have done with this is to really in effect say to charities, you can have fund raisers with up to a quite a significant level I think a hundred thousand dollars off hand and you can have a series of them so that a charity can perhaps have four or five of those in a year and not be caught within the GST net.
CORDEAUX:
Time is running out, two minutes to nine. Let me ask you quickly about a story that's making waves here and that is a picture that I think the Advertiser has hit hard in a rather cheeky way of Senator Minchin and the headline is, we will put the nuclear dump where we like.
PRIME MINISTER:
I have never heard Senator Minchin say that.
CORDEAUX:
Well the underline is under the headline is that Minchin again tells South Australia it cannot override Canberra.
PRIME MINISTER:
No but that is different from saying that we will put it where we like. I mean that implies that we are completely insensitive to public opinion.
CORDEAUX:
Well it actually put a hand on the Senator's nose and he's thumbing his nose at South Australia.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I've know Senator Minchin for a long time and he certainly doesn't thumb his nose at South Australia. He's like all of us someone who puts the national interest ahead of State interest and that's what the Federal Government should do. I don't give any preferment to the State or the City I come from.
CORDEAUX:
But Prime Minister, what happens if everyone in South Australia says no, we don't want that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well in the end what you have to do is take decisions as best you can in accordance with the national interest. You can sometimes accommodate legitimate concerns of an individual state and other times you can't. And I ask South Australians to look at our record overall in relation to the treatment of the State and I think you can find it's a very fair one.
CORDEAUX:
Have you made up your mind if you are going to do it or not? Where you're going to put this dump?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's a matter that is still being considered by the Government.
CORDEAUX:
How far away is the decision do you think?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh look I would have to say it's not all that far away but just exactly when I can't tell you without getting advice from the Minister.
CORDEAUX:
Prime Minister, good to talk to you. And again I apologise for the...
PRIME MINISTER:
No that's all right. Always good to talk to you Jeremy.
CORDEAUX:
All the best to you sir.
PRIME MINISTER:
Bye bye.
[ends]