Subjects: Kosovo refugees; salmon imports; Family Court;
Yassar Arafat; industrial relations; Telstra; GST
E&OE................................................................................................
PEDDLESDEN
And time to introduce my special guest. Good morning,
Prime Minister John Howard from his Sydney office. Prime Minister good
morning.
PRIME MINISTER
Good morning Ross, very nice to be with you and your
listeners.
PEDDLESDEN
And it's our pleasure and we've got plenty
of questions so I should get straight into them. We've heard this
morning on the ABC program AM' the story of the Becker family,
the Kosovo refugees going back to basically nothing, three days in a transit
camp and a burnt out home. Some in Tasmania will feel that the government's
been unsubtle and pre-emptive in dealing with the Kosovo refugees sending
families back to basically nothing. What is your response to that?
PRIME MINISTER
Well, my response is to say that I understand why people
might think that but I ask them to remember the circumstances in which
the Kosovars came here last year. They came here as a safe haven when
their lives were at risk, when there were no NATO forces in Kosovo, when
they had been driven out of their homeland by the Serbian forces. Now
however unhappy they may be with their lot back in Kosovo an enormous
amount of that has changed. There are now tens of thousands of NATO forces
in Kosovo. There has been a complete change in the security situation
and I ask people to remember that they were invited here and Australia
responded far more generously than most other countries given that we're
a long way from Kosovo and we're not a European country and we had
no direct stake in the conflict. We did respond none the less very generously.
And I ask people to remember that they came here on a certain basis, we
fulfilled our end of the bargain. If we had decided on an adhoc basis
to allow all who wanted to stay beyond the safe haven period to stay then
we would have been putting them ahead of others who've been patiently
waiting in the queue, whose humanitarian claims on a place in our refugee
program are as great if not greater than some of the Kosovars. You've
got to remember that there are people whose lives are at daily risk around
the world and we have to take those people into account. Well now it's
never easy and I can understand why in individual circumstances people
say oh gee why can't they stay but you have to take into account
the impact on the program.
PEDDLESDEN
And of course you've got an individual circumstance
of one lone young man, 19 year old, Akeif Ludvia who's on the run
in Hobart because he's got nobody in Kosovo and he's basically
saying he'll only go back to Kosovo in a coffin. I mean that's
extreme but that's the way he feels. He's been apparently tortured
while he was there. In that circumstance, that sort of circumstance, can't
you simply make an individual exemption?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there are lots of people who claim individual exemptions
Ross and once you make one exception you have to make a whole lot of others
and I repeat, the circumstances in Kosovo even though they're far
from ideal and they're not the sort of circumstances that anybody
is happy with they are infinitely better, more secure, more protected
than what they were when we first took the refugees and that is the valid
comparison.
There are desperate situations all around the world and
there are competing claims on the available places in Australia's
humanitarian program and we have to make judgements. And it's very
easy to just look at it in isolation but a government doesn't have
that luxury. We have to ask ourselves well if we make an exception in
relation to this person then somebody else who can claim equally desperate
circumstances but at the moment is kept out say, what about me?
PEDDLESDEN
On another issue, the Tasmanian government is absolutely
adamant that it will retain its state ban on imported salmon. You've
been critical of that. Will you take the Tasmanian government to the High
Court in order to protect Australia's status with the WTO?
PRIME MINISTER
Well the thing that I'm most concerned about is
the overall trade interests of Australia and the difficulty that we as
Australians face is that if we don't take appropriate notice of the
World Trade Organisation position we risk a ban being placed on our exports
into other countries.
PEDDLESDEN
So to pre-empt that will you take Tasmania to the High
Court?
PRIME MINISTER
Look please let me finish. That is our position. We are
concerned about preserving Australia's international trade and I
would say to your listeners that we have more to lose than we have to
gain by ignoring the World Trade Organisation on this issue because the
rules of that organisation which we didn't write were really forced
upon countries like Australia by the larger trading groups, they're
not particularly benign towards Australia but I have to deal with the
reality. All parts of Australia export a great deal to countries like
Canada and if we don't take some notice of the World Trade Organisation's
position then we will end up suffering more than we will by taking notice
of what they've got to say. I mean we, Tasmania potentially could
lose exports if the attitude of the Tasmanian government on this issue
prevails. Tasmania will be worse off if the attitude of the Tasmanian
government prevails. That is the point that I don't think Mr Bacon
and others, they just focus on one issue, they forget that Tasmania exports
things other than... I mean there's more in it than just salmon
there are other exports as well.
PEDDLESDEN
So in practical terms what will you do?
PRIME MINISTER
Well in practical terms I like to keep discussing these
things with state governments and not get drawn into provocative declarations.
PEDDLESDEN
In practical terms let's talk about Bass Link. There
are very practical plans now being drawn up for Bass link. They include
above ground pylons in south Gippsland which the proponents say are essential
to the viability of the project. One of your ministers has had a very
vocal campaign against those pylons in a situation where you promised
to expedite the project. Where do stand on it?
PRIME MINISTER
Well the government supports Bass Link.
PEDDLESDEN
Including the above ground pylons which the proponents
say are vital.
PRIME MINISTER
Well whatever is needed we support.
PEDDLESDEN
So you're prepared to go against the campaign by
one of your ministers?
PRIME MINISTER
Oh look...
PEDDLESDEN
Well he has been very vocal.
PRIME MINISTER
I know, well look I've given you the indication
of the government's position OK.
PEDDLESDEN
OK another resource issue is the gas pipeline which the
government will be making an announcement about today from the Bass Strait
basin to Tasmania will you also expedite that project?
PRIME MINISTER
Well I'll wait and see what the Tasmanian government's
got to say. I'm not... I mean...
PEDDLESDEN
I mean in principle are you supporting those sort of
things? It is regarded as vital for Tasmania.
PRIME MINISTER
Well we have been through a whole range of programs incredibly
supportive of Tasmania. I mean Tasmania has done better out of the sale
of the first two sections of Telstra than any other part of Australia.
I'm regularly told that by other state premiers as recently as the
Liberal Party Convention at the weekend. I mean if Mr Bacon and all those
Labor members from Tasmania who sit in the federal parliament really care
about the future of Tasmania they would be whole heartedly in support
of the sale of the rest of Telstra because Tasmania's done extremely
well out of the sale of the first two bits of Telstra.
PEDDLESDEN
All right that's something we'll come back
too. But let's go to calls. And our number is 1300 36 1688. If you
can't get through keep trying because we'll try to get through
calls as quickly as we can. And Peter is first. Good morning Peter.
CALLER
Good morning.
PEDDLESDEN
Yes go ahead.
CALLER
Ah, Mr Prime Minister you have introduced a plan to help
families more. I think the first thing that should be the first cab off
the rank is the Family Court, it is destroying families. Prominent solicitors
make huge profits out of it. It is generally anti-man and they're
making laws, which are often against the constitution and against international
law. Now this is because one man plays God and often there is an attempt
to force bankruptcy by back door means. This has happened in my case.
The system needs to be scrapped. Solicitors need to be put out of it.
Let them do the property conveyancing they make plenty of money out of
that. Do it by tribunal so you don't get one man playing God and
the Judge sitting in as an advisory... in an advisory capacity. Now
when are you going to do something about this. Stop fooling around with
minor issues and get onto the major one or is everyone in parliament too
frightened to prod the sacred cow.
PEDDLESDEN
Thank you Peter. Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER
Well I understand there's a lot of unhappiness with
the Family Court. I would offer the view, Peter I think it is that no
matter what system you have because marriage break down involves very
strong human emotions on both sides you're going to have people unhappy
with the system.. For your information when the family law act was first
put through parliament, it was just after I came into parliament and we
had a free vote on it and it wasn't just Labor against Liberal it
was a mixture of Labor and Liberal people supporting the new family law
act and a mixture of predominantly Liberals and Country Party people and
some Labor people opposing it. I was one of the people that opposed the
thrust of the family law act, I still think there were errors contained
in that legislation. You ask me whether we're going to change it.
We normally deal with these things on a free vote issue. I don't
think it's simply a question of replacing one system with another
and imagining that you're going to abolish human unhappiness with
family law procedures when you have a breakdown of a formerly loving relationship
and you have personal emotions involved people lose reason and you do
have very unhappy outcomes. I sympathise with you but I don't think
there's an easy way out of it by just changing the way you deal with
it.
PEDDLESDEN
Thank you Peter. Tony's next.
CALLER
Oh good morning Mr Howard.
PRIME MINISTER
Yes Tony.
CALLER
You'll probably get a lot of agro here this morning
but I can tell you there are a lot of people out here who've been
applauding your team, you've done a wonderful job since you came
into government.
PRIME MINISTER
Well Tony that's very nice to hear that, it's
really nice indeed.
PEDDLESDEN
Did you have another issue to talk about Tony.
CALLER
Well I was thinking in terms of such things as the gun
laws and Timor, funding to Tasmania, industrial relations and tax reform
and even what's been brought up today, the Kosovars. I think we've
done the right thing. They made an agreement and our people, Mr Ruddock
have been firm and fair.
PEDDLESDEN
All right Tony thanks very much.
PRIME MINISTER
Can I just pick up one thing that Tony mentioned and
that's industrial relations. This is an area where I think the government's
reforms have been very beneficial. I mean apart from anything else unemployment
has gone down. Tasmania on a trend basis has the lowest unemployment now
for ten years. We've generated throughout the country 660,000 more
jobs. I noticed this morning in the press that Mr Beazley has announced
that if he becomes Prime Minister he's going to abolish individual
contracts. Now that represents a weak capitulation to the influence of
the union movement on the Labor Party. We now live in a society where
approximately 20% only of workers employed by private companies in the
private sector belong to a union yet effectively Mr Beazley wants to hand
100% of the industrial relations power under a Labor government back to
the unions. Individual contracts are an important choice now available
to Australian workers and after a big battle inside the Labor party the
unions have won, Mr Beazley has been rolled, the attitude of people like
Simon Crean the former president of the ACTU has triumphed and this will
be a very important issue for the Australian people to contemplate over
the next eighteen months. I mean when the Australian people are turning
their backs on unions Mr Beazley is wrapping his arms around them. I mean
it doesn't make sense.
PEDDLESDEN
Let's move onto another Tony, this time in [inaudible].
Hello Tony.
CALLER
Hi Ross, hello Mr Howard.
PEDDLESDEN
Hello.
PRIME MINISTER
Ah Tony.
CALLER
About four years ago Mr Howard you made a speech where
you said you know there was more room for free speech in Australia and
less political correctness and I agreed with that entirely but soon after
that you denied, you and your government denied David Irving and Gerry
Adams access to this country on the grounds that they were allegedly of
bad character. I think not too long ago when Mr Adams visited here you
refused to meet with him and yet we've heard in the media about how
you're willing to meet with Yassar Arafat who has been one of the
masterminds behind the PLO and their atrocities including the cowardly
massacre of Israeli athletes and coaches at the Munich Olympics. I'm
just wondering if there's a logical argument.
PRIME MINISTER
Well I think there is a logic in that. We did deny Irving
a visa for character reasons and that position continues. Adams did come,
I didn't see him. The reason I didn't see him was a personal
decision on my part, I took the view and I think it's been vindicated
by subsequent events that the peace process had not moved far enough in
Northern Ireland to... and certainly his role in it had not been sufficiently
positive to justify my seeing him.
I have a great admiration for two figures of the Northern
Irish peace movement, the Catholic leader John Hume and the Unionist Leader
David Trimbull. They were the joint recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize
and I think they've contributed an enormous amount to the peace process
in Northern Ireland and I hope and pray like most Australians that we'll
finally have a positive outcome.
But on the subject of Arafat a few years ago I wouldn't
have met him but times have moved on.
PEDDLESDEN
He is now a head of state of...
PRIME MINISTER
Well no he's not quite a head of state, he enjoys
the status as the leader of the Palestinians and they're not an independent
state yet but he talks with the Israeli government on a regular basis.
And the gentleman who asked the question reminded me of the slaughter
of the Israeli athletes at the Munich Games and I remember that tragic
event very well. But I'd also point out to you that I have been encouraged
by local Jewish leaders in Australia to see Arafat and when I announced
on Melbourne radio that I was going to see him during my visit to Israel,
and that was queried by the interviewer, later on the same program two
leaders of the Jewish community in Melbourne went on that programme and
defended my decision and said it was entirely appropriate that I should
go to Garza and see Arafat because there is now a welcome improvement
in the peace process in the middle east. But the Israeli Prime Minister
and Arafat have met on a number of occasions and there is a recognition
in Israel of his role so there's quite a logic. I understand the
question and I am grateful for the opportunity to explain my position
because there is a lot of logic in the attitude I've adopted on all
of these issues.
PEDDLESDEN:
All right, lets move on to yet another different issue
from Josephine. Hello Josephine.
CALLER:
Good morning. Prime Minister I would like to ask you
about Collins Class Submarines. First of all, how did we get into such
a mess with it? And secondly do you think the time has come for Australia
to switch to nuclear powered submarines?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the Collins Class Submarine project was first established
back in 1987, when I think Mr Beazley, the current Opposition Leader was
the Defence Minister and we've had a lot of difficulty with that
project, and a lot of people argue that the concept was too ambitious
to start with but as a nation, as a result of that decision we've
sunk billions of dollars into the project and the Government wants it
to work for the benefit of the country and for the benefit of our Defence.
And we are embarked upon a process of getting control of the project to
ensuring that they are bought up to operational readiness and that they
can make a very significant contribution to our defence efforts. It's
very important that in the sort of strategic arc above Australia, we have
a capability of this... of some kind and the decision was made some
years ago. And you can understand with these big defence projects that
once you make a decision if you want to change it it's like trying
to turn around an ocean liner ten times the size of the Titanic.
PEDDLESDEN
So have there been times when you wish you'd never
heard of the Collins Class Submarine?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh well look it's been a very, very tragic, I mean
there's been a litany of errors and difficulties yes and the government
is very unhappy with the way the project has gone. But I am interested
in the now and the future as well as in the past. I mean it's a very
interesting debate as to whether the original decision should have been
taken but that was not taken by this government it was not... it was
taken 13 years ago when Mr Beazley was Defence Minister.
PEDDLESDEN:
Lets move on to Jim in Alderston. Hello Jim.
CALLER:
Oh good morning Ross. Good Morning Prime Minister. My
question is on the GST [inaudible] in to place by Morgan and Banks, about
four thousand people. How many of these people who have been employed
that are over 50? Why have accountants, tax officials and businesses been
overlooked in the over 50 bracket? And is it not true that many of the
people employed are under 30-35, have only got bank or commercial experience
and no legal or accounting qualifications?
PEDDLESDEN:
OK Jim... Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
You're talking about the people employed by the
ATO aren't you? I thought you said Morgan and Banks?
PEDDLESDEN:
Yes I thought I heard that as well.
CALLER:
Morgan and Banks were the agency they used to employ
them through.
PRIME MINISTER:
Who the Australian Tax Office?
CALLER:
Yes.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look I am not sure that your figures are correct.
I'm not saying they're wrong. I don't have the details
of the age profile. We certainly don't have any policy I can assure
you, promise you of discriminating against people over 50, certainly not.
People over 50 have an enormous amount of experience to contribute that
people under 30 and 35 can never remotely have. So let me assure you there
is no policy of doing that. As to the details of the age profile, I don't
know without asking the tax office about that because the tax office is
an independent unit of the government and we don't monitor their
day to day decisions on employment practises.
PEDDLESDEN:
It is though a reminder of the situation which you do
face. You've spoken to your backbench about the difficulties leading
up to the 1st of July and presumably after. The whole idea of the GST
was that you had a simpler and easier to administer tax system. Since
you compromised with the Democrats, there've been a range of amendments,
there've been tax rulings and apparently that process is likely to
continue. What happened to your simpler system?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, there's nothing inconsistent with having a
simpler system and the introduction of it being a major exercise. I mean
it's what happens after it, years ahead, months ahead that will determine
whether it's a simpler system.
REPORTER:
And years ahead, months ahead will you still be having
rulings as to you know whether cooked food is under it...
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't think you'll be having it years ahead.
No, the point I make is, look it could have been simpler still if the
Senate had not rejected what the people voted for. It wasn't only
the Democrats, I mean the Labor Party voted against every single thing
that the Australian people had voted for in relation to the GST, yet they
are going to keep it. I mean this is sort of the great fraud of their
position, they're saying it is terrible, and it's shocking and
it's confusing and yet they are going to keep it.
REPORTER:
Well they said this morning they will roll it back subject
to the situation of the budget, which Simon Crean says, is precarious.
PRIME MINISTER: