Subjects: Paul Keating's comments, Kim Beazley, Indonesia, ethnic self-determination
E&OE............
LIEBMANN:
Well, Prime Minister John Howard joins us in the studio this morning. Good
morning again.
PRIME MINISTER:
Not quite talkback radio.
LIEBMANN:
Not quite, but.
PRIME MINISTER:
This will do.
LIEBMANN:
Should former prime ministers, all of them, follow the lead of American
Presidents - when they leave the Oval Office at the White House they move
into private life and stay out of the public arena?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh look, I don't think you can impose that kind of vow of silence on anybody.
People are entitled to say what they think in this world. It's a democracy.
But, equally, they have to have what they say analysed. And what Mr Keating
said at the weekend was just plain wrong and demeaning and I think it a
exhibited continuing inability on his part to come to terms with what happened
to him three-and-a-half years ago.
LIEBMANN:
Are you personally offended by what he and Kim Beazley have had to say about
your position on East Timor and your motives for that position, I mean,
"domestic opportunism", "sabre rattling"?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I totally reject it. I mean, I'm used to personal insults from Mr
Keating and, to a lesser extent, Mr Beazley, but both of them are into it
on this issue. Now, I thought Mr Beazley supported of the troop deployment.
And I've tried to run a fairly bipartisan approach on this. I invited Mr
Beazley and Senator Lees to go with me when we visited the troops. They
were fully involved. I've offered him briefings. I can't understand this.
A Prime Minister's meant to explain why governments do things. This is the
biggest military operation Australia's been involved in since the Vietnam
War. I mean, if I didn't go out there and explain to the Australian people
why we're doing it I guess Mr Beazley and Mr Keating would criticise me
for not telling the public enough. I think you've got to take the public
with you on foreign policy issues. You can't just hand tablets down from
the mountain. That was Mr Keating's approach. And he kept the security treaty
with Indonesia secret until it had been concluded. He thought that was clever.
I don't think the Australian people did. So, I just say to both of them,
look, I've got an obligation to explain, to answer questions, to point out
why, and I'm going to go on doing that. Bob Hawke did it in the Gulf War.
He was on every radio station imaginable explaining why the Government was
doing it. Because when you send young men and women overseas in the name
of Australia it's a very serious thing and you've got an obligation to tell
people why and also answer their questions and listen to their criticisms
if they don't like it.
LIEBMANN:
Well then answer this question for me - how damaging is this apparent breakdown
in a bipartisan approach to foreign policy on this particular issue?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I prefer to take, at this stage, the charitable view that what Mr
Beazley is doing is searching around for a point of political criticism
without actually disagreeing with what we've done. Now, maybe I'm being
charitable to him but I think in the national interest I'd prefer to believe
that that was the situation because it doesn't help us, it doesn't help
anybody for there to be a breakdown in bipartisanship. I had understood
this deployment had their total support. Indeed, one of the criticisms of
us earlier was that, quote, "we weren't doing enough" and now
not only don't we need to explain that I'm allegedly trying to exploit it
- look, I'm not trying to exploit anything. I haven't found the last few
weeks easy. I don't think any of us have because it's a very serious issue.
And the last thing I'm trying to do is score political points out of this.
We're perfectly happy to have a go at the Labor Party on other domestic
issues where there are strong differences of opinion but on something like
this, I think, as far as possible, as we did with the Gulf War when we were
in Opposition, you should try and stop the political backbiting and get
behind it.
LIEBMANN:
I think in fairness to Kim Beazley, though, he's not questioning our deployment,
the deployment of Australian troops to lead the peacekeeping force.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, as I said a moment ago, I'm trying, I mean, I'm taking that view.
You asked me about the breakdown and I said I'd prefer to take the view
that he still supports the deployment but he's trying to, sort of, score
a political point off me. Well, I mean, I suppose he feels he has to do
that but it's pretty thin. I mean, what's his criticism, that I've explained
it to the Australian people. He talks about locking in support from overseas.
We've got a dozen countries committed. Only a few days ago I was on the
phone to the Canadian Prime Minister talking about Canada's commitment.
Canada announced the commitment of a reinforced infantry company. Ten days
ago or so I was on the phone to the Japanese Prime Minister. I mean, I have
personally spoken to the leaders of probably a dozen countries over the
last few weeks. We're constantly on the ball doing that. But you can, you
know, walk and chew gum at the same time. You can lock people in but also
go out and explain to your own people, which is your obligation, why we're
doing it.
LIEBMANN:
Could the Whitlam, Fraser, Hawke and Keating administrations have done more
for East Timor? I mean, Keating is saying, Paul Keating is saying no and
Kim Beazley has defended Labor's record on East Timor.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, let me quote Laurie Brereton. Laurie Brereton says yes. Now, I mean,
everybody can take their own pick. And there's a limit to how much you should
rake over the coals of the past but there's no doubt that what we have done
in relation to East Timor is a departure from the approach of former governments.
Now, circumstances are different. I accept that. The important thing is
whether it is right, not who's done it. And it is right and it does have
a lot of support in the Australian community because it's right and it's
in our national interests that we do so.
LIEBMANN:
Is Paul Keating too close to Indonesia, was he, is he and is he too close
to be impartial and objective on an issue like this?
PRIME MINISTER:
He was certainly, in my view, obsessed with the relationship between the
two countries and quite obsessed with the personal character of the relationship
between himself and the former President.
LIEBMANN:
Although in fairness, one must say it wasn't until recently that your party
changed its attitude on East Timor.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but we didn't invest quite the same degree of, sort of, ultra reliance
on the relationship that I believe Mr Keating did. But, look, that is in
our past. I think the reaction of most Australians was, well look, they
felt as though they were hearing old battles. I mean, that was just, that
was a flashback to the 1996 election campaign. It's now 1999.
LIEBMANN:
Okay, well let's talk about 1999. How close is Jakarta to breaking diplomatic
relations with Australia? Laurie Brereton says close.
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't believe diplomatic relations will be broken. I hope they won't be
and there's no need because we have no long-term quarrel with the people
of Indonesia. We've been a good friend of Indonesia's over the years, not
an uncritical friend but a good friend. And I don't think the sensible people
in Jakarta, from the President down, want relations broken and I would say
to those who are advocating it that that's not in the interests of Indonesia.
We need to live with each other. We have to live next to each other on a
basis of mutual respect. The relationship has got to be realistic. You can't
invest too much in it but you shouldn't lightly put it aside. And I think
people who talk about breaking the relationship are really advocating that.
LIEBMANN:
The National Security Sub-Committee meets today, is it going to give John
Moore the green light for a morale-boosting trip to East Timor to visit
the troops?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we meet on a regular basis but I don't think that will be the major
thing we're looking at. We just get regular reports on what happens. Look,
that's something that will be dealt with in the normal way at the right
time.
LIEBMANN:
Would you like to go before he does?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh look, it's not a question of who wants to go first. It's just a question
of doing what is the right thing by the men and women there. I mean, I will
be advised in relation to all of those matters by the people on the ground
and by the Australian Defence Forces. I'm following a very strict rule in
relation to this issue, I don't get involved in operational comments. That's
not fair to General Cosgrove or to Admiral Barrie. They have a remit from
the UN. They are there in the name of our country and I want to respect
their role and to give them their due as in our system the political decisions
are taken by us.
LIEBMANN:
Let me ask you a question Paul Keating directed to you in that speech at
the weekend in Sydney, and presumably is still waiting for an answer - does
your Government now support ethnic self-determination anywhere?
PRIME MINISTER:
Ethnic self-determination anywhere - no, we're not arguing that at all.
That's not the issue here. This is not ethnic self-determination. It's a
question of whether people who've, in a properly supervised ballot under
the aegis of the United Nations, have voted 80 percent for independence,
whether they ought to have it. I mean, for Mr Keating to drag ethnic self-determination
into this is to distort the issue and to create a goal that we're not necessarily
seeking or advocating. You look at each situation on its merits. And on
the merits, these people are entitled to have what they voted for. I mean,
80 percent, in anybody's language, is a big majority. I mean, even the New
South Wales' right would have to admit that if the other side got 80 percent
they'd have to surrender power.
LIEBMANN:
Final question - when does self-defence become hot pursuit?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it's a very technical argument and I'm not going to get into it because
when.this thing's been raised before. I think unfair comments have been
made about the person who gave the answer. It's a technical issue. I think
General Cosgrove put it very well.
LIEBMANN:
Thanks for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Pleasure.
[Ends]