Subjects: republic referendum; constitutional preamble; Rugby World Cup
final; cricket Test.
E&OE............
GATFIELD:
Mr Howard, welcome to Sky News.
PRIME MINISTER:
Very good to be with you John.
GATFIELD:
Well as you're aware, the latest polls suggests that a majority of Australians
do favour a republic, but not this particular model being put at the referendum
tomorrow. That I suppose leaves you in the minority. Are you feeling at
all uncomfortable with that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I didn't know that the polls were saying that. But John I don't take
too much notice of polls these days after the experience of the Victorian
election. This is going to be a very tight result. I don't believe that
the Australian people should vote for the republican model on offer tomorrow
because I don't think it would deliver a better constitution. I think in
some respects it would deliver in a difficult time a less safe and predictable
constitution than the one we have at the moment. And after all, the onus
is on those who want change to persuade us that it will be a change for
the better. We are already an utterly independent country and I see no virtue
at all in taking a punt on a model that has a lot of flaws in it, has drawn
a lot of criticism, and clearly won't deliver a president who is as secure
in his or her tenure of office as is the Governor-General under the present
constitution.
GATFIELD:
Why do you say that the president would not be as secure as the Governor-General
is now?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well because he can be removed at the immediate whim, without any process
of formal application, consultation etceteras, by the Prime Minister of
the day. There's no republican constitution in the world that has a removal
provision like that.
GATFIELD:
But in some senses don't you have to have that to avoid the conflict, the
potential conflict between the powers of Prime Minister and the powers of
a president?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we don't have that conflict now.
GATFIELD:
Because the Governor-General doesn't have those same powers.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well no. The Governor-General in an extreme constitutional difficulty does
as we found in 1975. But he does it in a way that remits the whole issue
to the public for a decision. I mean the very fact that 24 hours from the
referendum these things are still being discussed and are still in doubt,
underlines the fact that we are being asked to vote for something that could
leave us in a difficulty. I'm not saying each day because any old constitutional
will work when there's no problem there's no conflict. But an arrangement
that could in a difficulty leave us with a less secure and predictable way
of resolving it.
GATFIELD:
But under the proposed model doesn't the Prime Minister have to go back
to Parliament and get approval from Parliament?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes but he'd almost certainly get that because he's Prime Minister because
he leads the majority party in Parliament. But even if Parliament were unexpectedly
to say no the president would still remain dismissed. There is no provision
for the reinstatement of the president. He or she remains dismissed full
stop.
GATFIELD:
There is this suggestion that a no vote if successful tomorrow will leave
this country more divided than if the yes vote got up.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I think that is a self-serving argument coming from the republicans.
GATFIELD:
Well actually it comes from Peter Costello today.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Peter and I are on different sides of this argument, although I respect
the way he put his case as he does respect the way I've put mine. But look,
the outcome will be accepted by the Australian people whatever it is. I
mean the Australian public once it's decided this issue will then move on.
And this idea that in some way there's going to be great discontent if the
yes vote fails, I think with great respect to those who want the yes vote,
it's an attempt to sort of, you know, persuade by coercion and intimidation
people into voting yes. I mean it's perfectly.if people have any doubt about
this thing they should say no and it's perfectly legitimate for Australians
to do that and they shouldn't be warned that there's going to be division
and so forth by the republicans. There won't be any division. Australians
will accept the result. I will accept the result if it goes yes. If it goes
no everybody else will accept the result. There'll be disappointed people.
People have poured a lot of energy into the debate on both sides will obviously
be disappointed if it goes against them. But we are engaging in a great
democratic process which drives home the point that we are an utterly independent
country because here we are 24 hours out and we have the capacity to say
yes or no to this change. There couldn't be a greater demonstration of our
total and complete independence.
GATFIELD:
With respect, surely if the no vote succeeds tomorrow the debate is not
going to go away because Ted Mack today, the independent MP..former independent
MP who's voting no because he believes in the direct election model, he
is saying that if it goes down tomorrow there will be a campaign for another
plebiscite, for a plebiscite at the next federal election in which he would
expect the question to be do we want a republic or not?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well in a democracy any citizen or group of citizens has a perfect right
to agitate for anything they want. And I haven't said and I'm not saying
to you today that if there's a no vote people will stop arguing the case
for a change, of course they won't, that's a democracy. What I'm saying
is that I think the mood of the public will be that the matter won't come
back in a hurry but I can't say that it will never come back. I'm not arguing
that. I've never said that. I'm trying to be honest with people about the
consequences of either outcome. If there's a yes vote then there, in my
view, will be no chance of people ever having a vote on a directly elected
President because the great bulk of parliamentarians in both parties are
against a directly elected presidency and I don't think they'd ever put
a referendum for that up. On the other hand, if there's a no vote I think
the issue, people will want the issue to go away for a while. They will
have had a say but that doesn't mean that at some time in the future people
mightn't argue that it come back. But that is a democratic process. You
can't have a situation where you say, for all time this is a one and only
vote. I mean, nobody can ever say that about anything. I can only express
a view as to how I think the public and the political parties will react
to either of the two possible outcomes.
GATFIELD:
Are there circumstances under which you would consider going to the next
Federal election for the plebiscite on the republic?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well look, I think it is absurd of me to try and answer questions like that
when we don't even know the result of tomorrow. I mean, people should ask
me about the future after we know the result of tomorrow. I don't presume
that tomorrow is going to be a no vote. I don't know what the result is.
I think it will be very close. I do hope that there's a yes vote on the
preamble. I think the preamble is the one opportunity tomorrow where all
Australians can come together. Those who are republican and those who are
anti-republican, they can combine to say yes to a statement of common Australian
values including, in particular, the reference to the indigenous people
of this country - the first decent, positive, noble, gracious reference
to them in our Constitution.
GATFIELD:
I'll come back to the preamble in just a moment but just looking at that
question of a possibility of another plebiscite, are you saying that it's
foolish then for people like Ted Mack to say that, yes, we could have another
vote at the next election?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, you're asking me whether something would be part of Coalition policy
at the next election. What I'm saying to you is that I will talk about the
future after tomorrow.
GATFIELD:
But it's just that people like Ted Mack are holding that out as a great
possibility.
PRIME MINISTER:
But nothing I will say will stop Ted Mack arguing that.
GATFIELD:
No, but if you said there's no chance of having a plebiscite that would
kill his argument.
PRIME MINISTER:
I'm not going to start answering hypothetical questions at this point. The
first I'd heard that he'd argued that. But look, our view is very simply,
John, that if there's a yes vote I don't think there's any hope of there
ever being a referendum on a direct election because the great bulk of people
in both parties are against that. And I think once the republicans got a
republic they wouldn't want to then give the people an opportunity of changing
the type of republic we have. I think that really is a pipe dream. If there's
a no vote I think the mood will be, look, we've had a debate, the people
have spoken, let's get on with other things but there will always be some
people in the community who will want to argue for further consideration
of it. And I understand that but I can only answer the question as faithfully
and as best I can and that is my feeling. The mood of the country will be,
look, we've had a lot of debate on this, spent a lot of money on it, let's
just give it a rest for a while. But that doesn't mean to say that in the
future people mightn't revive it and argue for it and I can't say for all
time we're never going to have another vote. I've never said that and I
can't, it would be stupid of me to say that.
GATFIELD:
One of the interesting things about the polls so far anyway, it suggests
that younger people, the 18 to 24 year-olds, are supporting your case, they're
supporting the Constitutional Monarchy. Is that something that surprises
you and is it reflected in your own family?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I prefer not to talk about my family. They're young adults and if
people want to know their views they should ask them. A good way to preserve
a good relationship with your kids is never presume to speak on their behalf.
They're very intelligent young adults and they've got their views and they're
entitled to them. Can I say that it doesn't entirely surprise me. I think
young people are unmoved by this debate. I saw an interview last night with
a panel on Lateline and David Malouf, the author, made a very powerful
point when he said that this has not been a grassroots movement. This idea
that you can bring about a change like this by, in effect, brow-beating
people from the top into accepting it by a sort of celebrity cavalcade,
an avalanche of names, I don't think that wins the hearts and minds of people.
If you really are to find a genuine desire for change in a big way on something
like this it has got to come out of the spirit and out of the grassroots
of the people. And I think that younger section of the age group who are
very savvy, they are very switched on, and I think they, sort of, feel that.
Now, that's not to say a lot of them won't vote yes. A lot of them will
vote yes, a lot will vote no. But there was a mistaken assumption made by
republicans that because this was a change then the young would automatically
support it. They are not quite like that. They are interested in outcomes
and, I think, many of them are unpersuaded that the outcome of this will
be a better Australia.
GATFIELD:
Now, let's come back to the preamble for a moment, and I know you are a
passionate supporter of that, is there a danger that it might go down and
what dangers are there for us as a society if it is defeated?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don't think there is any danger for the society if it's defeated.
But I think it would be a great pity if it does go down because this is
an opportunity for the whole country to say yes to something that encapsulates
some commonly held Australian values, recognises the contribution of immigrants,
the contribution of our veterans, the contribution of Aboriginal and Torres
Strait Islanders as the first people of the nation. This will be the first
time they have been referred to in a positive way in the Constitution. And
it will, if passed, it will make a contribution towards reconciliation and
I think that is a first class thing and I'll be very disappointed if it
goes down.
GATFIELD:
That, I guess, is the danger then, if it does go down it fails to move on
towards reconciliation.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don't think reconciliation is conditional upon this being carried
but I think if this is carried it will be very good news for reconciliation.
So if you really care about reconciliation you ought to get behind the preamble
in a big way.
GATFIELD:
I notice in one of today's papers there was a letter saying "let's
vote down the preamble because this is badly written, let's have another
go. This is just the first effort."
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I can understand some people saying that but you will never get total
agreement on the wording of something like this. I think you have total
agreement though on the values and I think that is very important. And,
of course, as you said immigrants in particular have . Meg Lees has supported
this one too. She says that it's so important that we should acknowledge
the contribution that migrant groups have made to Australia.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it's the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders, migrant groups, our
common commitment to the rule of law, the equality of people before the
law, the equality of men and women, the contribution of those who died defending
this country. All of those things are an important part of the Australian
story and it will be very nice if this version of the Australian story were
adopted into our Constitution.
GATFIELD:
It does seem though that discussion on the preamble has been somewhat lost
amongst the republican debate though?
PRIME MINISTER:
I guess it was inevitable that the republican debate would dominate the
airwaves and that was inevitable and unavoidable. But equally to hold a
separate referendum on the preamble alone would have been criticised by
many people as being too expensive. And it seemed logical to link the preamble
with the republican referendum. And I don't know how else one could have
done it. I think if I'd have had a separate referendum on the preamble people
would have said: well, this is a terrible waste of money, why don't you
link it with some other change. And, you know, we are back to where we are
now.
GATFIELD:
Just changing the subject slightly now and what we hope is good news. Australia
started the first Test well in cricket, of course, and we have the World
Cup Rugby coming up on Saturday night. You must be hoping for a dual success.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I certainly hope for a no vote but as far as rugby is concerned I
will unite with Australian republicans and anti-republicans alike in cheering
the Wallabies. I stayed up to watch the game last week and can I just say
to John Eales and all the boys in Cardiff: good luck, I'll be there cheering
in the early hours of Sunday morning. And I think they'll give a great account
of themselves. And it'll be tough. The French played very well, but we have
superbly risen to the occasion. And all our thoughts and barracking and
cheers will be with the Wallabies on Sunday morning.
GATFIELD:
And I suppose a little bit of trans-Tasman rivalry doesn't go astray when
we know that the Springboks have beaten New Zealand into fourth place today.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don't want to get into that. I am only ever interested in Australia
winning, I don't really mind who has the runner-up places.
GATFIELD:
Prime Minister John Howard thank you very much for joining us on SKY News.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you.
[ends]