Subjects: Referendum, Constitutional Preamble
E&OE.............
LIEBMANN:
Prime Minister, good morning to you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, Steve.
LIEBMANN:
Would you agree as we sit here this morning it would seem that Australia
is going to remain a monarchy with the Queen as Head of State?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I'm not sure what the outcome will be. Of course many people would
dispute whether our present arrangement has the Queen of the Head of State,
many would argue, as I do, that the Governor-General's the effective Head
of State, drawing his authority from our constitution. A prediction - I
don't know. I've learnt after Victoria to suspect the opinion polls. My
feeling is that it could be close. I hope the republican model is rejected
because I don't think what is on offer would give us a better system than
we have now. I think it would give us a worse system so that's why I'm voting
no.
LIEBMANN:
Can you tell me why, when 91 percent of Australians don't want the Queen
as their Head of State, when the majority of Australians would prefer, in
the broad sense, Australia was a republic and probably the majority of your
parliamentary colleagues would feel the same way, why you don't?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I'm not sure that some of those figures are right. I mean, that 91
percent derives from a poll that asked people intending to vote no why they
were voting no. And the greatest number said exactly what I just said and
that is that they don't want to change the present system because they believe
it works extremely well. And many of them, another 33 percent, said they
were worried about the way in which the republican model would work. I mean,
my view is to argue for what I think is best for Australia. I think we're
better served staying with a system we know is good and we know works, we
know is democratic, we know allows this country to be totally independent
around the world. Now, people can criticise that view but it's a wholly
legitimate, authentically Australian view. We are careful, sceptical people
of change unless we're satisfied that it is change for the better and I
think we are right to be sceptical, we are right to be suspicious of people
coming along and saying there'll be a new Nirvana if we become a republic.
I mean, that's just not true. This is a good and decent country and if the
public vote no on Saturday it will continue to be a good and decent country.
Now, in the end, you've got to make a judgement about what you think is
better for the country and my opposition to change is based on a belief
that an accident of history has given us a remarkably effective system and
I just don't want to risk changing it for something I'm unconvinced is better.
Now, that's my view.
LIEBMANN:
Talking of views, Michelle Grattan, in the Herald and the Age
this morning is saying that you would be the first Australian Prime Minister
to urge Australians to reject the question that your government has advanced.
PRIME MINISTER:
I think I can turn that on its head and say I am the first Australian Prime
Minister to facilitate the Australian people making a choice in favour of
something that I personally don't support. Most prime ministers in the past,
if they haven't supported something they haven't put it up. But I recognised
the desire on the part of the Australian people before the turn of the century
to have a vote on this issue. And even though I'm personally against it,
I put it up. As Tom Keneally said at the Constitutional Convention it was
the ultimate act of grace on my part being opposed to a republic to nonetheless
give people a vote on it. So surely, if I may, I hope without being immodest,
say that is a point in my favour rather than a criticism of me.
LIEBMANN:
Given that the Queen is by law.
PRIME MINISTER:
The Queen of Australia, the Governor-General effectively by convention.
LIEBMANN:
But can you tell me why Australians should have to share the Queen as our
Head of State with numerous other countries from New Zealand to Barbados?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, you make a judgement about that. That's one of the things you put
in judgement. You say, well, okay, she's the Queen of Australia and she's
also the Queen of a number of other countries and you think, well, okay,
that's one argument. You then ask yourself, is that sufficient reason to
sweep away a system that has worked so very effectively? Now, they're the
judgements people have got to put in balance. Now, I say on balance it's
not. And that was the view I put at the Constitutional Convention. Now,
if people disagree with me, well, of course they'll vote yes. I mean, in
a sense, this is what the debate is all about. I mean, we are an independent
democratic country. Everyone knows that. Everyone knows that this has its
own distinct identity. Nobody mistakes an Australian anywhere in the world.
I mean, to suggest that we've got to vote yes to be Australian is absurd.
That is the implication in so much of the republican advertisement. Their
great failure in this campaign, in my view, has been they haven't persuaded
us that this country will be better. I mean, you change something when you
think it's going to be better as a result of the change. I don't believe
in change for its sake.
LIEBMANN:
But why not encompass the best of the past with a move forward?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don't think this model does that. I really don't. I mean, this model
will have a President instantly dismissable at the will of the Prime Minister.
This model will not.
LIEBMANN:
Yeah, but there are riders attached to that.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the rider is that what you get a vote of the House of Representatives.
Well, can I say as the Prime Minister commanding a majority in the House
of Representatives I would be hypothetically unlikely to do that unless
I knew my party was going to back me. So really the endorsement by the House
of Representatives means nothing.
LIEBMANN:
You said yesterday, I think I'm quoting you correctly, Australia's stability
will be better preserved under our present system. Does that then mean that
if we became a republic we would be less stable?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, what it means is that our present constitution is better able to cope
with a crisis than the model on offer. I mean, any old constitution works
when you don't have a crisis. I mean, you don't need a constitution when
you don't have a crisis. But every so often some stress will come along
and you need a constitution that handles the stress. And the test of a stable
constitution is how it handles stress. So what I'm saying is that in the
event of instability the present constitution would handle it better than
the one on offer.
LIEBMANN:
Does tomorrow's result have to be a resounding one either way?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, tomorrow's result will be what the Australian people want it to be.
I mean, I hope that there's a resounding yes vote for the preamble which
is the other question because the preamble is an opportunity for republicans
and anti-republicans alike to combine to make an aspirational statement
about our future. And for the first time we'll be putting something decent
and noble in the Constitution about the indigenous people. I hope it is
resoundingly carried. Look, I think the other one will be close. I don't
know what the margins will be either way. I hope it's defeated. I hope it's
defeated in every State. I think that would be good but, Steve, the customer's
always right in these things. If the public votes no on Saturday, well,
I accept that. That's the outcome I've been advocating. If they vote yes,
I will accept that too.
And can I just say, I notice in the last few days people are saying, oh
you know, if it goes down, there'll be great bitterness and division. I
don't think there will be. This is not that kind of country. We've had a
fair contest and.
LIEBMANN:
Has it been fair, there's been a lot of deceit and lies on both sides?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, yes, well, if you accept that, I don't know if I necessarily do but
if you do, well, they've sort of cancelled each other out. I mean, everybody's
had a go. The question is patently clear. The question describes exactly
what the change is - the President replacing the Queen and the Governor-General
and that President being chosen by two-thirds of the members of Parliament.
I mean, that is what will happen if you vote yes. Now, people who complain
about that are really sort of, you know, reflecting on their own inadequacy
but I think this will be a stable decent country if it goes.
LIEBMANN:
Either way.
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course it is. We're a stable, decent good people.
LIEBMANN:
As you said, the customer's always right.
PRIME MINISTER:
Absolutely.
LIEBMANN:
Nice to see you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thanks.
[Ends]