E&OE....................................................................................................
HADLEY:
We've got a very special and a surprise guest in the studio,
the Prime Minister, Mr John Howard, good morning to you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, Ray, very nice to be here.
HADLEY:
It is a surprise. Thank you very much. I'm sorry I'm not
responding in coat and tie but I didn't know you were coming.
PRIME MINISTER:
You look terrific. I don't think your head's all that bad
either.
HADLEY:
Well, compared with some others it may not be. How was the break?
PRIME MINISTER:
Terrific, the best holiday I've had in about 20 years and the
longest one. I played a lot of golf. It hasn't improved all that
much but it has improved a bit. I watched a lot of cricket, read a
lot of books including Tom Wolf's latest book, A Man In
Full', which was a great read, the whole 750 pages of it and
had a very good holiday. And I'm happy now to be back. There's
a lot to be done but I think it was good to get right away from it.
I think the Australian public likes a break from politics over Christmas
and the New Year and sport was on the front pages, not always in a
positive way but it was certainly on the front pages and I think that's
good and I think that's what Australians want.
HADLEY:
Does it sometimes get a bit frustrating when you're on holidays
and Tim Fischer's looking after the shop for you that maybe you
think, gee I'd like to have a crack at something about this but
you're...
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, not this time. I have every confidence in Tim and I even got
to the stage where a couple of nights I didn't mind whether or
not I saw the news on television. I really switched right off and
I think that's good and I'm now back with a vengeance.
HADLEY:
We can see that. There's been some criticism, I think it's
ill-founded, this morning about this attack on the young people
and I say attack in the true sense of the word, attacking the problem,
not the people literacy and numeracy. You've offered in
the past opportunities for these young people to go back and learn
a bit more. That hasn't come to fruition so now you're basically
saying you have to or we're going to take some money off you.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, that's what we're saying. And it's a very, very
fair principle. We say to people who can't get a job, we're
prepared to provide you with a safety net, provide you with the unemployment
benefit. We're not prepared to allow people to...we don't
want to see people starve on the streets, that's not the Australian
way. But we're saying to people that if we give you help and
support you when you don't have a job, in return, if you're
able to do so, you should do something to help yourself. And clearly,
in the modern age, if you can't read or write properly it's
very hard, indeed, to hold down a job. It was always difficult but
it's even harder now because there are fewer manual jobs and
we are far more a knowledge based, communications based society. And
far more of the jobs require more communication and knowledge, therefore,
if you don't have those basic skills, you can't get to first
base. And what we're saying to people is, if that is your situation
then we're going to require you to do a remedial course as a
condition of getting the unemployment benefit. We're not saying
to you that you've got to pass that course with flying colours.
We're not saying to you that, yeah, you've got to be some
kind of literacy or numeracy genious. What we're saying is that
if you've got a clear problem and you've failed basic tests
then you've got to do a remedial course. Now, what's unfair
about that? I think it's elementary, absolutely elementary. It's
a question of we help you if you will help yourself, we will help
you if you give something back in return. I don't think that's
unfair.
HADLEY:
The critics say the problem extends back to the fact that many young
people come out of the education system not knowing how to read and
write.
PRIME MINISTER:
That could well...that is clearly the case. And in some instances
it's the fault of the system, in some instances it's not.
But it doesn't alter the fact that they come out in that condition
and that condition prevents them getting a job and society is saying
to them we want you to get a job, the first step to getting a job
is to get basic skills so we're going to require you to undertake
a course in return for the unemployment benefit. Irrespective of what
the cause is, addressing the problem is still the same. It's
still got to be dealt with. You've still got to try and give
to people who don't have basic skills a capacity to read and
write. Now, it is an appalling problem and I feel desperately sorry
for people who can't read and write properly and there are many
mature-age people, there are many people in their 40s, 50s, 60s and
70s in our society that are in that situation. Now, with the older
age groups they went through a time when perhaps it wasn't quite
the inhibition that it is now. But whether it was or it wasn't
is, in a sense, beside the point. We're dealing with a current
day problem and that current day problem is quite real. And all we're
saying is, we'll help you if you help yourself.
HADLEY:
Just away from that. These secret Treasury documents we read about
today claim the GST won't create one job, in direct opposition
to what you were told.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, no, they don't say that. What they say is that they didn't
do a calculation of the job impact. They didn't model the employment
impact. They don't say they won't create jobs, they just
say that they didn't do any calculation on that. Now, that's
not contrary to anything that's been said. We never represented
it, they did. But Treasury did give evidence yesterday saying that
they thought the employment impact of the package would be positive
but they just didn't try and quantify.
HADLEY:
At the end of the sausage machine, which is this inquiry, I mean,
are you going to have any more luck with the Upper House in trying
to push it through?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we'll find out. But I just go back once again to the basics
we took this plan to the Australian people. They voted us back
despite all the opposition to which we were subjected and all the
criticism and all the fear campaigns and we won the election. And
what we're saying is, can we please now implement what the Australian
people voted for.
HADLEY:
I've been talking about this in New South Wales about the need
for a house of review, an upper house, and the amount of money that's
wasted on it. Do we need a house of review when you have the mandate
to govern? I mean, do we need someone looking over your shoulder?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, whether we do or we don't and I still support having
a Senate, obviously we've got it and it's part of
the Constitution. We can't abolish it, even if we wanted to and
we don't. Do we need it? I think you do need a second chamber
but I think you need a second chamber that respects the will of the
people. If the second chamber adopted the attitude that it will pass
anything that has been put at an election in a very clear and open
and comprehensive way and the public's voted for it different
matter if we hadn't said anything about taxation reform at the
last election and we were now putting up, I think the Senate would
have a perfect right to blow the whistle and say, look, you fellows
didn't tell the public about this so we're not going to
support it - but we did tell the public about it. We laid it out painful,
complete detail and the public voted for us, we're entitled to
get it through.
HADLEY:
Well, most people thought you'd lose the election based on a
GST.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, they did, a lot of people did. I mean, an enormous number of
people said to me, you're mad, you're crazy, you shouldn't
be doing it, if you didn't mention the GST you'd cruise
back. Well, we did mention it because I believe in it and there's
no point in being in government unless you're willing to do things
that you believe in and which you regard as important to the future
of the country.
HADLEY:
The other issue that seems to be rather divisive is this republic
debate. And I keep getting open-line calls about it, as John does,
right throughout the year and I simply say to the people, look, there's
no point you and I discussing it here and me arguing with you about
what I think and what you think, some time later this year we'll
all make a decision.
PRIME MINISTER:
That's right. Well, that's my view. I mean, I don't
support a republic. I've said that and I said that in '96
and I said it in '98. A lot of people disagree with me, a lot
of people agree with me but I'm not going to try and force my
view down your throat or the throat of your listeners. I think the
present system is about the best you can devise. Other people have
different views. We are going to have a vote. I said we'd have
a convention and we had it. I said that I'd put to the Australian
people what came out of the convention and that is exactly what I'm
doing. I'm not trying to pull the wool over anybody's eyes
but I don't want to get heavily involved in the debate. If somebody
asks me my view, I will give it. The public know where I stand on
it. But I'm not trying to ram John Howard's view down anybody's
throat. I really don't want to get involved in a day-to-day basis.
I am allowing a free vote inside the Liberal Party. I've said
to my Liberal Party colleagues, you have different views there's
nothing wrong with that on an issue like this. I think it's a
mark of maturity that a political party in government can allow a
free vote amongst its members. That's not a mark of weakness,
it's a mark of maturity. The debate will be conducted in a civilised
fashion and at the end of the day we'll all have a vote. And
if the vote is yes', well I will preside over the transition
to a republic. If the vote is no', well, it will be off
the agenda for a while. It will obviously, if people want it to, come
back in the future. It's a free country. What else can I do?
I mean, I said I'd have a convention and I had it. I said I'd
put what came out of the convention and the clear majority
of people voted for the model that's being put at the end of
the year. They didn't vote for the direct election model. And
I'm putting it. Now, it will either win or lose. Now, if it loses
it could well be, some years into the future, the issue will come
back. I don't know.
HADLEY:
I'm glad you used the word maturity' because there
was a lot made when you were playing golf and reading books, about
a couple of your colleagues going at each other about this. I think
it's very healthy. [Inaudible]...basically the same views
about it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it's one of those...politics, modern politics is not
so straight-jacketed and blinkered and ideological that you can't
have a genuine difference of view on something like this within the
same party. Now, I would reckon, I mean they will never admit, but
I'd reckon that there are people in the Labor Party who don't
agree with the republic. But because the view in the Labor Party is
so overwhelmingly republican, they're sort of a bit scared, you
know they probably feel a bit intimidated. Now I don't want that
in the Liberal Party. There are people who I respect in the Liberal
Party who disagree with me on this. So what? Providing things be done
in civilised manner which it will be, and there are no personal changes
and people just put their point of view. I think the public appreciates
that. They see it as a breath of fresh air. They see it as a departure
from rigid party doctrine. I mean there's no way that I could....you
could ask some people in the Liberal Party who have strong views on
this to sort of toe the line with the majority view, or equally it
would be quite unreasonable to ask people who hold strong views in
favour of the status quo to toe some other line. They're going
to have a free vote but it's not the most important issue, it
really isn't. The great bulk of Australians do not talk about
this issue very much. I've had virtually nobody raise it with
me, they just don't.
HADLEY:
Away to some other issues that maybe are dear to my heart and are
dear to your heart as a sports loving Australian, the Olympic bidding
process. Without specific reference I guess to Sydney, but there's
been mail for years that this has been a tainted process and now we're
finding out it is. Four have resigned and probably more will go. Is
there something that people like you in authority can do to try and
[inaudible]?
PRIME MINISTER:
Somebody in my position is....on the one hand, I respect the fact
that sports administrators have got a job to do and the worst thing
in the world is, for a sports administrator, to have his or her decisions
being double guessed by a Prime Minister or a senior politician who
happens to be interested in the sport. As everybody knows I'm
a great lover of cricket, I'm also a great lover of rugby league
and a whole lot of other things, sport. But if I was sort of giving
a running commentary every time that a decision was taken on something
or other it would be quite wrong and unfair. So I try not to do that.
But the Olympic bribery scandal is sort of something of a one-off.
The dimension of it is so huge. I think there is...in the minds
of some people, it comes as no great surprise. I don't think
there's any doubt about that. I think there is something of an
excessive imperial grandeur about some aspects of the international
Olympic movement and I think that's been brought down to earth.
And I think in the long run that will be a very healthy thing. I went
to an Australia Day ceremony in my own electorate in Ryde and the
ambassador was Shane Gould. And she made a lovely speech and she talked
about the aristocracy of international Olympic administration and
I thought she put it very nicely. And I thought to myself, it carries
so much more weight coming from an Olympic gold medallist. I mean
they're the people who should really be speaking for us on these
issues and they're the people who in the long run have a lot...as
much to loose as anybody else. But I have to say in defence of the
Sydney bid - and I was not involved in any way myself because I was
in Opposition, federally, when it was taking place, but I know a lot
of the people who were involved - I don't think on the evidence
available you could say in its purist sense there was any bribery
involved in what I've heard. I mean bribery is personal enrichment
isn't it, to change your mind. Now sure there was some extremely
zealous lobbying and perhaps that became excessive. But I hope it
doesn't take community and corporate support for the games. I
want to get behind it as Prime Minister. I want to work with the government
of New South Wales, of whichever political persuasion it will be after
the next election, to make them a success. And so far the evidence
is that the preparations for the games have been extremely good, very
good indeed and I congratulate those associated with them.
HADLEY:
Without wishing to embarrass you, you come into this radio station
regularly to talk to John Laws and Alan Jones and other people, I'm
in here doing sport, we pass each other in the corridor: What's
doing, Ray?', Prime Minister good morning, how are the
Dragons going?', - we have a yarn about different things, how's
the golf. And it's just a normal conversation with a bloke you'd
have at any stage. The fact that you're Prime Minister, a certain
amount of dignity goes with the position. But when Juan Antonio came
here, I'm informed I've got to call him Your Excellency
and there's a bit of bowing and there is that sense of theatre
and royalty attached to the IOC which it shouldn't be there.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well of course it shouldn't be and I think that's sort of
being cut down to size. Australians don't like that. Australians
are innately courteous people but they are innately unpretentious
people and I just think people should be treated courteously and respectfully
but you treat people on their merits. If you've got a job to
do, you do it. It's not been an easy time and I feel for all
of those thousands of people throughout Australia who devote their
weekends without any king of reward to keeping sport going. I mean
we've all sort of done it at various stages in our lives as parents
and you get in and become an official of the local cricket or soccer
club or something or other. I mean this is what really keeps sport
going in this country.
HADLEY:
The mums that wash the jumpers, the dads that mark the line.
PRIME MINISTER:
Absolutely right. Absolutely. And that's what it's all about.
And they have a certain ethos and a certain spirit. Some of them get
very spirited. Overall it sort of keeps sport going in this country
and it's their sort of expectations about what's right and
what's wrong and the expectation of their kids about what's
right and what is wrong in sport that really matters most to me. Now
that applies whether it's the Olympic Games or whether it's
international cricket, or rugby league, or AFL, it doesn't really
matter.
HADLEY:
A couple of quick ones: should Mark Taylor go to the West Indies?
PRIME MINISTER:
That's a matter for him. He put the issue back into play. All
I can say is he has been a fabulous captain. He's a great choice
as Australian of the Year. And whatever decision he makes I think
all of Australia will accept. But he really has been a wonderful captain
and his shoes will be very difficult indeed to fill.
HADLEY:
As a rugby league supporter of the St George Club with one red and
one white eye, have you embraced yet the St George-Illawarra joint
venture?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh yes, yes. Even to the extent of having an across the party divide
discussion with Stephen Martin who's the Labor Member for Cunningham
and therefore an Illawarra man. It was inevitable that mergers of
that type would take. It seems to have gone ahead pretty well, and
I think there's been some give and take on both sides. Certainly
the St George identity is still very, very strongly maintained but
there's a proper respect for Illawarra. I hope that I can get
to one of their early games this year, I really do.
HADLEY:
Now on the final thing, much was made of your golf game during your
holiday. Judging by the pictures there's a lot of work to do.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yeah, there is a lot of work, Ray.
HADLEY:
But there's an open invitation for you to join the continuous
call team and Channel 9's Ray Warren. We think that you are an
able candidate for our group of golfers. Firstly you can accept sledging
having been in Parliament and Question Time for a long, long time
now. So no matter what [inaudible] on the back swing you'll still
complete the stroke or on the putting surface. And you are about our
standard which would suit you better because I know you don't
bet but you could make an exception for us and we could get some money
off you.
PRIME MINISTER:
You could. You probably would.
HADLEY:
Which would be something to brag about for a long, long time
the day we beat the Prime Minister.