E&OE..................................................................................................
O'BRIEN:
John Howard, now that Australian police are committed to East Timor,
what will they actually do?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, all of that is to be worked out with the United Nations. What
I have said is that if we are asked by the UN we will respond sympathetically
but the numbers and precisely what they will do is to be discussed
with the Secretary-General.
O'BRIEN:
But it will only be an advisory role. It seems very clear from what
the Indonesians are saying that they would not expect the UN advisers
including Australians to participate beyond an advisory role, is that
your understanding?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think you will find that there will be a reasonably flexible interpretation
given to that. The exact terms of their engagement will be worked
out. Clearly, the Indonesians see themselves as having a prime responsibility
for security and safety because it's in their country. Plainly
the rest of the world including Australia wants to be satisfied that
there are adequate numbers of police to support the consultative process.
There is still an amount of detail to be worked out. It's an
unusual situation, it's not entirely novel. We have involved
ourselves in policing operations before. We want to be constructive,
we want to be helpful but we also want to be satisfied that our men
and women will be safe.
O'BRIEN:
Given the death threats that have already been received by Australians
from the pro-Indonesian militia in East Timor, what assurances have
you received from President Habibie and General Wiranto about security
for the Australians that we would be sending there including medical
teams, Red Cross and so on?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh, I have received plenty of general assurances of course. They are
part and parcel of negotiation and I am grateful for those but we'll
want more in our discussions with the Secretary-General with the United
Nations. We'll need to be satisfied, as far as we humanly can,
that our men and women will be as safe as possible recognising that
it would be foolhardy of me to pretend to anybody who goes into a
theatre such as that that there isn't some element of personal
risk involved. And that's part of the, I guess, the responsibility.
It's part of the life that people who are involved in police
and in the defence forces take on. Now, I'm not going to pretend
that there'll be no danger. It's my responsibility as Prime
Minister to tell the truth about that. It's also my responsibility
to try and get the maximum security arrangements that I can and I'll
be taking expert advice on that and we'll certainly be pushing
for that very hard.
O'BRIEN:
As you say, the Indonesian military are insisting that all security
in East Timor, leading up to the ballot, will be provided by them.
Given the highly questionable track record of the military right up
to this time in East Timor, how relaxed are you about having Australians
in their hands?
PRIME MINISTER:
Kerry, I'm not relaxed about any aspect of this issue. It's
very difficult. And what we have tried to play is a constructive role.
We've tried to use our influence. We haven't walked away
from the problem, nor have we been unnecessarily bellicose about it
and I think we've got somewhere as a result. We want there to
be a civilian police presence under the auspices of the United Nations.
We want that to be adequate in numbers. And I'll need to be satisfied
that the arrangements are as secure as we can possibly make them for
any Australian to participate, not only as police but also as part
of the UN group that will actually conduct the consultation or the
ballot. In a sense, there are two separate roles.
O'BRIEN:
How convinced are you that General Wiranto will put his full weight,
as leader of the armed forces, behind providing adequate security
in Indonesia given that the kind of intelligence advice that you yourself
have been receiving that General Wiranto has been, quote: "at
least turning a blind eye", to killings in East Timor and failing
to rein in his own soldiers?
PRIME MINISTER:
Kerry, I can't give rock solid guarantees, nobody can. But what
I can say is that I am a lot more confident now than I was a week
ago, or two or three weeks ago, that the Indonesians are very serious
about trying to restore a measure of stability and providing a reasonably
decent and open and non-intimidatory climate for the ballot. The eyes
of the world are far more on the Indonesians now than they were a
few days ago and certainly a few weeks ago. Indonesia needs the understanding
and the benevolence of the rest of the world because of her economic
difficulties. I think we should give credit to Habibie and others.
After all, he's the first Indonesian leader to accept the notion
of a free choice by the East Timorese people. The presence of General
Wiranto at yesterday's meeting and his involvement in the discussions
and the agreement that came out of it was reassuring to me.
O'BRIEN:
Has President Habibie convinced you that Indonesia can deliver on
disarmament of all those, the paramilitary and others, on the pro-independence
side before the August ballot? I mean, did he present himself as confident
to you on that issue?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh, he asserted great confidence, yes, he did. And certainly I found
him genuine. I also recognise that as the President of a country of
211 million people, with many of those people in absolute poverty,
with an enormous economic challenge, with great ethnic diversity,
with 3,000 islands in the archipelago and only 900,000 East Timorese
out of 211 million, he does have other challenges and other responsibilities.
And I sometimes think the rest of the world loses sight of that.
O'BRIEN:
Has he indicated how soon the disarmament process will begin presuming
that that document is signed at the UN on May 5, putting the framework
in?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, well, responding to that, Kerry, he argues that that process
of restoring a more normal situation, including people being encouraged
and obliged to lay down arms, that that process has already begun
that it began last week when General Wiranto went to Dili when
they signed that agreement involving Xanana Gusmao and other leaders
when the peace and stability commission was established. Now, obviously
we all have to wait and see developments as they unfold. We try to
exert the maximum pressure consistent with retaining a capacity to
influence the outcome. We offer to help both financially and on appropriate
conditions with our personnel. Now, it is a difficult and fragile
situation and I'm not representing to the Australian people that
everything is going to go perfectly and swimmingly from now on. What
I am saying to them is that I am a lot more confident now than I was
a week ago. And this is the only path that Australia can follow. I
mean, we can't walk away and ignore it, nor are we going to sort
of turn around and invade the country. We really have to keep a proper
sense of perspective. We have three alternatives. We use our influence.
We have the unacceptable alternative of military action which is,
you know, absolutely totally and utterly out of the question, of course
it is. Thirdly, we just throw up our arms and say, well, we disengage,
we withdraw from any help to Indonesia, we sever our military ties,
we chop off our aid and we walk away. I don't think that will
help the East Timorese people.
O'BRIEN:
Briefly on the GST, Prime Minister. Given the extent of Senator Harradine's
concerns about the GST, despite all of your assurances and Treasurer
Costello's assurances, concerns covering food, rent, transport,
clothing, charities, compensation for pensioners and many others,
how will you be able to meet those concerns without significantly
rewriting your tax package?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Kerry, we are looking very closely at what Senator Harradine
had to put. We're obviously not going to gut the package for
anybody but we are going to be willing to fine-tune it. I'm not
going to get drawn fair question and I understand why you ask
it but I'm not going to get drawn any further than that.
We want his support. We want Senator Colston's support. We'd
like the support of the Australian Democrats. We're not prepared
to take food out because that will represent a gutting of the package.
We are prepared to fine-tune. And obviously there will be a lot of
talk between now and the 30th of June.
O'BRIEN:
Okay, but there's obviously a clear difference between fine-tuning
and removing the tax on food or clothing and so on?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I've said that we're not going to take the tax off
food - we've said that all along or, indeed, on something
like clothing. But there are other ways in which you can fine-tune
without damaging the essential commodity.
O'BRIEN:
We're going to be fascinated to see how you deal with that. You
had a very strong moral view against taking Senator Colston's
vote when he was first charged over the alleged travel rorts. His
case will be back in court in the next few days. The DPP will have
to make a decision about proceeding or not. Do you really now feel
no compunction about accepting Senator Colston's vote in these
circumstances?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it is no different from the Labor Party using Carmen Lawrence's
vote in the Lower House, is it?
O'BRIEN:
We're talking about, we're talking about the expressions
of concern that you had on...
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, no, look I accept, Kerry, that we changed our position from
about 18 months ago, we changed our position after the election. I
accept that and I think with the benefit of hindsight I probably took
too severe a view. And I should have stuck to the simple principle
that every man and woman is entitled to a presumption of innocence.
Now, Mal Colston is in exactly the same position as Carmen Lawrence.
And I make no comment on Carmen Lawrence other than to use her as
a comparison. She's entitled to a presumption of innocence. So
is he. That's our law. That's our doctrine. Now, we went
beyond that before the last election. We changed our position after
the election. I was criticised for that. I accept the criticism. There's
nothing I can do about it. But as of now, the fact that his case is
on call-over next week doesn't alter the position that unless
and until a man or woman is convicted, that person is entitled to
a presumption of innocence.
O'BRIEN:
John Howard, thanks for talking with us.
PRIME MINISTER:
Pleasure.
[ends]