E&OE.......................................................................................
PRIME MINISTER:
I spoke to the Indonesian President Dr Habibie earlier this afternoon
and it was a very useful and candid discussion. I told him that Australia
respected very much the leadership he had taken earlier this year
in announcing a change of Indonesian Government policy regarding East
Timor, and that I was calling him as a friend and as the leader of
a country that had very close and friendly relations with Indonesia,
and that therefore because we have those friendly relations and against
the backdrop of those relations I could speak to him very openly and
very candidly in conveying the concern of the Australian Government,
and I am sure the concern of the Australian people about developments
in Timor.
I told him that I and the Australian Government were very deeply concerned
about recent developments in East Timor, particularly the recent killings.
I noted that we had called for restraint on all sides but I said that
there was a strong and inescapable impression in Australia that ABRI
had not done enough to discourage the violence and discourage the
killings. That ABRI had primary responsibility for maintaining security
in Indonesia and that quite plainly that responsibility in East Timor
had not been properly discharged.
I told him that the damage that could flow to Indonesia's international
reputation as a consequence of these developments was significant
and that it was important to us as a friend of Indonesia that that
damage not be aggravated.
In response the Indonesian President said that he appreciated my call
and he appreciated the frank way in which I had put the concerns of
the Australian Government. He shared my concern about the development
in Timor that he had taken action today in Jakarta to call upon those
involved to cease their acts of violence. He has given certain instructions
to the Indonesian Security Forces regarding that, and that he would
obviously be discussing the matter with his colleagues at a cabinet
meeting which he was about to join after our discussion had taken
place.
He confirmed the strong determination of the Indonesian Government
to go ahead with the UN sponsored consultation on autonomy for East
Timor and he reiterated that he saw a very important role for Australia
in this.
We both agreed that the direct and immediate discussion between us
in such a frank way has been very useful, and we agreed at my suggestion
that we should meet within the next week if possible - probably in
Bali - to further our discussions regarding this issue and I will
probably be accompanied by Mr Downer and Mr Moore. Mr Downer and the
Indonesian Foreign Minister, Mr Alitas are already beginning to make
arrangements. The meeting will take place as soon as possible. It
probably can't be before the weekend or early next week because
Mr Alitas will be attending a United Nations meeting in New York.
He will be leaving Jakarta to go to New York tomorrow.
The President readily agreed to my suggestion that we should meet
and further our discussion, and it will be an opportunity to emphasise
a number of things. To emphasise the concern that the Australian Government
feels about the situation in East Timor, and I don't want anybody
to be left in doubt, in any doubt we believe that the situation has
deteriorated sharply, and that is why I spoke as I did yesterday,
it is why I spoke to the Indonesian President today, and it is why
I propose that we meet as soon as possible to further discuss the
matter.
It is also an indication of course that the relationship between the
two countries remains , and I stress between the two countries, remains
very close, that there are obvious demands placed on a relationship
when public criticism is offered of the conduct of the armed forces
in one country by the leader of another country. But it is nonetheless
a very strong and durable relationship. We have been a good friend
of Indonesia's over the past year or two. We've supported
them economically, we've argued their case in the face of some
rather peremptory and insensitive responses from some who would have
sought to impose a more severe economic solution. I expressed to the
President today my feeling that Indonesia had been delivered a particularly
unfair and difficult international economic hand, and that Indonesia
had suffered more than she deserved as far as the economic downturn
was concerned.
I think that the opportunity that the meeting between us affords for
a furtherance of our discussion today is very important. Its an opportunity
for me to put very directly our concerns and discuss Indonesian responses,
recognising of course that Indonesia has sovereignty over East Timor,
that there is a commitment from the Indonesian Government that there
will be a proper act of self-determination. I have no doubt that Dr
Habibie remains very strongly committed to allowing that act of self-determination
to take place and he is very strongly committed to the consultation
process. Obviously that can't be achieved whilst the fighting
goes on and obviously the call that he has made today in Indonesia
for people to cease hostilities and to put aside their arms, is from
his point of view and earnest of his good intentions, and he does
intend to involve the International Red Cross in providing relief
work for people who have been caught up in the violence. The violence
has been ugly. There has been a very significant loss of life. They
are distressing developments. It's important that Australia play
a constructive role and as a close friend of Indonesia's, our
role surely is to speak frankly but fairly, to offer our counsel,
to offer our understanding but also as is appropriate in a close relationship
between two countries not to be reluctant to express a strong point
of view if the circumstances require it.
I would expect that we would meet sometime in the next week or ten
days, probably in Bali and that the arrangements would be made by
Mr Downer and Mr Alitas. I will be accompanied on that visit by both
the Foreign Minister and the Defence Minister.
JOURNALIST:
Did you specifically ask Dr Habibie about disarming these militias
and if so, did he respond?
PRIME MINISTER:
He indicated that he was taking steps to get everybody involved, I
think the best way I can paraphrase his response, to put aside their
arms.
JOURNALIST:
[Inaudible]
PRIME MINISTER:
Well let me put it this way, there was no serious difference between
us during the discussion.
JOURNALIST:
Given the role of ABRI in this, would you hope or expect that General
Wiranto would also take part in the talks as Defence Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that is a matter for Dr Habibie. It is not for me to say who
should comprise his party in the meeting. But the fact that I will
be taking our Defence Minister probably indicates that the same could
well be the case on the Indonesian side. But I can't say who
is going in the party.
JOURNALIST:
Are you confident that Dr Habibie has genuine control of the Indonesian
Armed Forces?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Dr Habibie has as the political head of that country has ultimate
responsibility and clearly my remarks of yesterday and today indicate
that I am unhappy, the Government is unhappy, with the behaviour of
ABRI and there's been a clear transmission of our view that ABRI
must accept responsibility for the aggregate security of Indonesia
including of course the security situation in East Timor and Dr Habibie
certainly today made it very plain that he was unhappy with the situation
in East Timor and he recognised and understood our concern.
JOURNALIST:
What inference should we draw from the fact that you are taking the
Defence Minister with you?
PRIME MINISTER:
No inference other than that is entirely appropriate, that on a meeting
like this you have available to you all the relevant ministers who
may be helpful.
JOUNRALIST:
What do you hope to practically achieve at the meeting with Dr Habibie?
PRIME MINISTER:
The most important thing is an opportunity to underline the concern
we have about what is happening. The fact that we are concerned but
we're also a friend, that this is a very difficult time for Indonesia.
It's a particularly difficult time for the people of East Timor.
This is our part of the world. We are seen by the rest of the world
as having a particular involvement in this part of the world and it
would be very strange indeed in a situation which has clearly deteriorated
if the Prime Minister of Australia and the President of Indonesia,
given the long history of relations between the two countries, were
not to meet and to have a discussion about it. I would hope that I
would be able to drive home to, or put as strongly as possible to,
the Indonesian Government the concerns that we have. I would hope
that out of the meeting there would be an unmistakable and unambiguous
understanding of how we feel, but also we would be transmitting that
feeling against a background of being a friend - not necessarily an
uncritical friend - but a friend of Indonesia's. And it is still
very much in the short, medium and long-term interests of Australia
that we maintain a frank and open and close relationship with Indonesia.
We have been able to achieve that...or preserve that through some
very difficult times over the last few years, and it would be a very
strange Australian government at this difficult time that did not
see it appropriate for the Australian Prime Minister and the Indonesian
President to meet and talk about these things which are of such direct
relevance to both countries and to our region.
JOURNALIST:
Have you been talking to other countries trying to get them to apply
pressure on Indonesia to restrain ABRI?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well let me say this, the only country I've spoken to today has
been Indonesia. I don't rule out some contact with representatives
of other countries either by myself, or more particularly by the Foreign
Minister. But we're not involved in some kind of international
ganging up. We're involved in a process of putting our view as
a close neighbour and a friend and a nation that has developed a particular
and very positive relationship with Indonesia, but also a country
that's very concerned about the deteriorating situation in East
Timor and the damage it is inflicting obviously on the people of East
Timor, the damage it's inflicting on Indonesia's international
reputation. And also, out of a natural concern to make a positive
contribution.
JOUNRALIST:
Did you put directly to Dr Habibie that you believe that ABRI has
been arming the militias within East Timor?
PRIME MINISTER:
The words I used, as best I can paraphrase them, is that there was
an unmistakable impression in Australia that ABRI was turning a blind
eye. I didn't specifically use the words that you have just used,
but to use the same expression again there was an unmistakable conveying
in my conversation of the concern that I have about the role of ABRI.
I mean I don't think we should sort of get hung up on a semantic
debate about how you describe the role. Clearly the role has not been
satisfactory when you put it that way and the Australian Government
is unhappy with it and that is why I said what I did yesterday and
it's why I spoke to him today, and it's why I proposed to
continue the discussion at our meeting.
JOUNRALIST:
...the Australian and Indonesian defence forces which have been
close, any way that can be used positively in East Timor?
PRIME MINISTER:
In a situation like this Dennis I think you would use all contacts
to urge restraint, to urge moderation. You've got to remember
that ABRI is quite a large organisation and there are some signs of
dis-aggregation in the command structure and therefore you can't
always assume that everything that happens in the name of ABRI in
certain parts of Indonesia is necessarily at the direct behest or
the direction of the central authority. Now that is a matter for Indonesia
and that's the responsibility of Indonesia. But we are willing
to use all of the contacts that we have at different levels to convey
our concern and to urge a change. I do want to make the point that
Dr Habibie did show a great deal of leadership in changing Indonesian
policy on Timor. He was not without his critics domestically in his
own country when he changed that policy. He deserves credit, he deserves
a lot of credit for that and he deserves respect for the leadership
that he showed on that issue, and I'm sure that he remains very
sincere about the act of choice, or self-determination, or whatever
you want to call it. The involvement of the United Nations, the involvement
of Australia and other countries in the supervisory process under
the egis of the United Nations. He's very committed to that.
In all of it I think it's important. Although we have a lot of
concern about what has happened over the last 48 hours, it is very
important that we recognise, given the history and the background
of Indonesia's relationship with Timor, just how significant
were his actions earlier this year in changing his Government's
policy.
JOUNRALIST:
Did you get any sense today that the President was unhappy with or
frustrated by the actions of ABRI? You've expressed Australia's
unhappiness. Did we meet that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we spoke for about 20 minutes or so on the phone, 15 or 20 minutes.
I put my concerns, he responded. I've tried to describe his response
and we've agreed to meet. The fact that he has agreed to meet
me indicates that he understands our concern and that he sees it as
something that is very important, I don't know that I ought to
try and parse and analyse the every nuance of his response.
JOURNALIST:
Given your concerns over what is happening with ABRI, would you support
an outside supervisory force moving into East Timor?
PRIME MINISTER:
Oh, look, Indonesia has sovereignty over East Timor and sovereignty
carries both authority and responsibility. And the point that I emphasise
in these matters is that when you have sovereignty and you have the
authority that goes with sovereignty you also have the responsibility
that goes with sovereigny. I think it's quite counter- productive
to be talking about substitute outside supervisory forces at this
time.
JOURNALIST:
...pro-integrationist forces can't be disarmed or can't
be brought under control then can Australian afford to sit by and
watch a slaughter.....
PRIME MINISTER:
Look I, look you know, the worst thing to do in a situation like this
is to respond in a knee-jerk way to every hypothesis. And one thing
at a time. We're going to have a discussion and there are Australian
interests, there are world interests, there are regional interests
and there are bilateral interests in this situation. Naturally the
Australian interest is best met by my putting our view very directly
which I've done, talking to the Indonesian President. I'm
not going to make this country or any of the resources of this country
willy-nilly hostile to a particular outcome. I think it is very important
that countries measure their responses and work out in advance what
their capacity is to influence events if the course of action they're
currently following doesn't work. I don't think it's
a good idea to sort of telegraph in advance on a "what if"
kind of scenario what you may or may not do. Two more questions on
this. Well, I I'm sorry I haven't had one
from you, no.
JOURNALIST:
Just to clarify Prime Minister, could you just clarify for us, did
Dr Habibie acknowledge that ABRI was or may have been complicit in
the events of the weekend?
PRIME MINISTER:
He did not dissent from the view that I put. I want you to understand
what I'm saying.
JOURNALIST:
(inaudible) whether he acknowledged....?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, well, I mean, please, it's not appropriate that any words
be put into his mouth or mine on an issue such as this. I put a point
of view and his response essentially was well I appreciate the candour
with which you have expressed your view.
JOURNALIST:
And he didn't directly give you his view about that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don't intend to say any more than that. I don't
think it is appropriate or helpful.
JOURNALIST:
Prime Minister, how soon now do you think that it will be possible
to have civilian UN personnel on the ground in Timor given the deal
that's on the table in New York later this week.
PRIME MINISTER:
Very difficult given what has happened in the last forty-eight hours
for me to give a helpful response at the moment to that I don't
know.
JOURNALIST:
What do you think these events have done to the timetable for....?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's too early to make that judgement. They've obviously
not helped the timetable, but can I say again that Dr Habibie was
insistent today about his commitment to the UN involvement and the
process. He really sounded to me very committed to it and a person
who is quite prepared to work very hard and very strenuously to bring
it about.
JOURNALIST:
What did Senator Tierney mean this morning when he said that the Government
was still discussing the tax scale and I think at the end of
the day we're going to end up with a much fairer package'.
Is he saying that the package is going to changed to be much fairer?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the Government hasn't been discussing the scales, it's
a very fair package. The Government's position was made very
plain yesterday on television by me and it's been made very plain
by the Treasurer in an article in a newspaper this morning and our
position remains that the Senate processes I haven't seen
their latest offering because I've been at other meetings this
afternoon is it out yet? No. Our position is that no indentation
of consequence has been made in the package through the Senate processes.
JOURNALIST:
(inaudible) saying it could be made much fairer?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's a very fair package and people from time to time express
their point of view in a free party. We're not a gathering of
Stalinists.
JOURNALIST:
Mr Howard, you talked about fine-tuning yesterday. Could you elaborate
in what area or areas you see a possibility of such fine-tuning?
PRIME MINISTER:
No.
JOURNALIST:
Would compensation be fine-tuning?
PRIME MINISTER:
Our position is as I've described it and I'm not going to
be further drawn, I'm not going to further speculate. It is a
fair package, I've always said that. We're not going to
alter the essential thrust, we're not taking out food. I've
never ruled out fine-tuning, you're not going to start getting
me speculating, hypothesising, musing, ruminating, or anything else
of that kind in any other way.
Thank you.