10 September 1999
Subject: East Timor
E&OE……………………………………………………………………………………….
GIBSON:
Mr Howard, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning. How are you Mike?
GIBSON:
Good thank you. Thanks for joining. Can you enlighten us on the latest news from our Government this morning?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well the latest information we have in relation to the position in Dili is that it’s a little less negative than it has been over the past few days. I don’t want to overestimate the improvement. There’s not really been an improvement. The deterioration has stopped. One Australian aircraft that flew into Dili this morning has returned to Darwin, and it has carried some of the local staff that were attached to the United Nations’ mission there. And that’s a positive sign and it does indicate that there’s a little more cooperation forthcoming from the Indonesian authorities on the ground. I’ll be talking in about 20 minutes to the Secretary-General of the United Nations. He’s been in touch with a whole lot of people and we agreed to talk again around 11:30 today Australian time, eastern-Australian time.
GIBSON:
Do you anticipate, although really you have yet to speak to him, that they may be a step closer to the green light being given if required for a peacekeeping force to go in?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I don’t know. I haven’t spoken to him.
GIBSON:
Yeah, but I mean do you think the indications….
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, please. I understand that there’d be intense interest of people, and I would like to know too what he’s got to say. But until I speak to him I obviously can’t. And this is the situation that is changing all the time. I know that, in a sense, doesn’t suit the desire of people to have it all in a tidy situation so we know in advance exactly what’s happening. But when you are trying to assemble the maximum amount of international pressure to persuade a country to do something it’s clearly been unwilling or unable to do to date, and you’re saying to it that in default of you doing what the international community expects you to do, we want you to accept our troops on your soil. It’s not an easy task and you have to use a variety of methods. You have to apply pressure in different ways. You have to understand that no matter what we may think of the behaviour of another country every nation has its own sense of dignity and self respect, and you have to use a variety of approaches to try and get an outcome. Now we’ve made our position very very clear and that is recognised all around the world. It was recognised in the remarks that President Clinton made a few hours ago about the role and the leadership that we’ve displayed on this issue. I understand the frustration of Australians. I understand their desire for something to be done. I also understand that unless we can get the acquiescence of Indonesia the only alternative is something I don’t think any Australian wants and that is war with Indonesia.
GIBSON:
Do you have any indication that Indonesia is likely to finally acquiesce?
PRIME MINISTER:
Mike, so far Indonesia has said that it will handle the situation itself, and the world’s response has been that there’s not much evidence that it’s being handled properly. Indeed there’s evidence that it’s being handled appalling. Now we have to keep applying the pressure. Indonesia has not acquiesced to date. That is self-apparent. But that doesn’t mean to say that circumstances won’t change, but we have to continue to apply the pressure. And in different ways we’re going to do that and I’m in regular contact with all sorts of people. The situation on the ground this morning in East Timor is apparently a little less difficult. I don’t want to put it any more strongly than that. But food and water is available. There seems to be a greater level of cooperation between the UN people and the Indonesian authorities. And those Australian planes which have done a magnificent job have been able to get people out. But there will still be a continued United Nations presence in Dili. That’s very important. And that presence will include some Australian civilian police, who under Alan Mills have done a fantastic job. And also some consular people who were in the Australian consulate which has been reduced in size and really contracted into the United Nations compound in Dili. Now having that presence on the ground is tremendously important and it is a symbol of the rest of the world saying to the people of East Timor that we want the ballot that was conducted only six days ago….well conducted more than six days ago but only announced six days ago, result announced, that that ballot will be given effect to. Because in the end what this is all about is the people of East Timor having the right, having voted for independence, to have independence.
GIBSON:
Bearing in mind the close bond we have, or I think some Australians would say we thought we had with the United States, what was your reaction when we were told that they would not be making troops available?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well they haven’t said that Mike. They haven’t decided the level of their commitment.
GIBSON:
They said they would make troops available?
PRIME MINISTER:
No they said that they are still considering that. That’s what they’ve said. Now to be fair to them that’s what they’ve said. No I naturally would have like an immediate offer, and I’ll continue to press very strongly for an American contribution that includes troops. When I spoke to the President yesterday morning he acknowledged how strongly we felt about it and he said that that matter was still under consideration. Now that is better than him saying no they’re not going to be made available. And in the remarks that he made this morning, in acknowledging the contribution that we had made, he made it very plain that that issue was still under consideration. There will clearly be an American contribution if there is a peacekeeping force. Whether that contribution includes troops or just transport, logistics, intelligence, and other back up I don’t know. That is a matter for the Americans to decide. We have made our position very clear. I’ve told the President on two occasions that the Australian public would not understand if the Americans were not there if there is a peacekeeping force, that if the Americans were not there alongside the Australians given the past contributions that we have made when asked, and the closeness of the alliance over just about 100 years, but particularly over the last 50 years. He understands how strongly we feel about that. I left him in no doubt about it and I’m certain that the issue will be discussed again over the weekend as I will see him at the APEC meeting in Auckland to which I’m travelling late this afternoon.
GIBSON:
Now we’ve told Jakarta we deplore what’s happening. We’ve declared that we will lead if we need to a peacekeeping force into East Timor. Why no economic sanctions? Surely this morning Australians would have expected at least some form of sanction against Indonesia?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we haven’t ruled that out. Nobody’s ruled economic sanctions out. They remain on the table. It’s just a question of what is the right time to apply a particular level of pressure.
GIBSON:
Would it not be now?
PRIME MINISTER:
No. I think the best emphasis is at the moment….look it can change almost on an hourly basis. The main focus at the moment is to get maximum international diplomatic pressure applied to get Indonesia to either clean up its act in East Timor, or if it can’t or won’t do that let others come in and do it. Now that’s the objective. I’m not saying that at some stage economic activity isn’t part of that pressure. But it’s better at this stage in our view to be applying the sort of pressure we’re applying. I’m not saying we won’t apply economic measures, I have never said that, the Government has never ruled that out. The Government has always said that economic measures are on the table. I repeat again, this is a situation that can change almost by the hour, so people shouldn’t assume that the situation is other very fluid.
GIBSON:
How instrumental do you believe that you were in this referendum, that has, in fact, sparked off this crisis. You letter to President Habibie last December, do you believe that it was a key factor in the East Timorese going to the polls. It was a proposal of yours.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, I think we were, and we don’t apologise for that. For years people have argued that the people of East Timor should be given the right to vote on their future. I believe that the letter I wrote to Dr Habibie and the other representations made by the Australian Government and the views put to persuade the Indonesians to allow the East Timorese a vote. I think that pressure was instrumental and if I had my time over again, I’d have done it.
GIBSON:
If you had you time over again, would you have tried to ensure, bearing in mind the volatility up there and the fact the Indonesian military was so strongly opposed to that referendum, would you have tried to ensure that there was some sort of greater security for these poor people who are literally being slaughtered because of the way that they voted?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Mike, if we had tried to insert a peacekeeping force into the territory before the ballot took place there probably would not have been a ballot. People seem to unrealistically think that we had the capacity, the world had the capacity to say to Indonesia not only will you have a ballot, but while the ballot is being conducted we will have a peacekeeping force there. Now if the world had said that to Indonesia, you know what Indonesia would have said to the world? No ballot. It was only a finely achieved thing that a ballot took place. Dr Habibie went out on a limb in having a ballot. The Indonesian army didn’t want a ballot, Megawati, who beat him in the election, was against East Timor having independence. And this idea that if we had run around before the ballot demanding a peacekeeping force then, that the Indonesians would firstly, have accepted it and secondly, gone ahead with the ballot is cloud cuckoo land stuff. It would not have happened. If we had tried to get a peacekeeping force in there or the United Nations had insisted on a peacekeeping force as a precondition of the ballot, do you know what the Indonesians would have said? No ballot because it was a fine call inside Indonesia. One of the reasons that there is now a lot of pressure on Dr Habibie’s position is that many elements inside the power establishment in Jakarta objected to a ballot. They just wanted East Timor to continue as part of Indonesian territory. So I would say to those people who are now running around saying, look you should have had peacekeepers there in the first place. We would have had to blast our way in, there would have been no ballot and there would have been a lot of bloodshed. It is an appalling situation, and I understand how distressed people are. I am distressed about it, you’re distressed about it. But I have deal calmly and logically and sensibly with reality. I have to understand what Australia can achieve, I must also understand the limits of what Australia can achieve. We can only act militarily in cooperation with the United Nations and other countries. And we can only, short of war and nobody is arguing for that, we can only have a military presence in East Timor as part of a peacekeeping force if the Indonesians acquiesce. Now that has always been the case, because it is Indonesian territory. It is legally no different from people saying well we want to put a peacekeeping force in Tasmania. Do you think the Australian people would regard that as anything other than a violation of our sovereignty? Of course, nothing ugly is happening in Tasmania…
GIBSON:
Well it did last century, maybe a peacekeeping force may have saved our Indigenous people down there.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well if we had had that it certainly would have. But I understand, I am talking about what is happening now. I am aware that many years ago some very ugly things did occur in Tasmania
GIBSON:
Some would compare them to what’s happening in East Timor.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Mike, I haven’t come here to argue against that. I am trying to explain for your listeners what is involved. I know that they feel why isn’t the government doing more? Now I say in response to that question, the more that we can be doing at the present time, in a sense involves, just say, lets invade the place. Now saying that we’re, I am not ruling out economic action, but even if you impose some kind of economic action, some will argue that that will make the situation worse for the desperately poor people in Indonesia because they suffer most.
GIBSON:
Peter Costello says this morning that long term economic sanctions rarely have great effect. I would have thought short term was more important to everyone at this stage.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that’s why the sort of political pressure we are applying is far more effective than anything else. We have never ruled out economic sanctions or economic activity. There are all sorts of things you can do economically, but there is a very long history. I mean look at Iraq, there have been economic sanctions applied for years against Iraq.
GIBSON:
You say, our political pressure that we are applying is having far greater effect. What effect has it had?
PRIME MINISTER:
What I am saying is, is that it is more likely that international political pressure is more likely in the short term to bring about a change of attitude. That’s the point I make. But can I say to you we may form a different view about that, we may come to the conclusion that some other steps need to be taken. I don’t want, in a situation like this, when I say we haven’t done something up to date, I don’t want people to assume from that that we will never do it in the future. That would be wrong because as it is a volatile fluid situation, we intend to keep all of our options open. Including taking steps on the economic front, those steps remain very much live options and very much on the table.
GIBSON:
I realise that you are the busiest man in Australia this morning and I do thank you for your time Prime Minister.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it is nice to talk to you again Mike. It always is.
GIBSON:
Thank you. Our Prime Minister John Howard..
[Ends]