CORDEAUX:
Day 13 of the wharf dispute and the Prime Minister, John Howard,
says that the future of this country is being decided on the wharves
now. It all goes back to the court today. The Federal Court prepares
to hand down its decision on whether to reinstate the 1400 sacked
Patrick Stevedore workers. The Prime Minister is on the line. Sir,
good morning, thanks for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Jeremy, very nice to be with you again.
CORDEAUX:
Do you have any sense of, I don't know, foreboding? How is
the fight going in your opinion?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's a very important issue. It's about whether
Australia will have a competitive waterfront in the future that
will enable us to sell more abroad, employ more Australians at home
and survive in a very difficult world trading environment. Perhaps
one of the economic reports that came out this morning put its finger
on what this is all about and that was a report from Access Economics.
CORDEAUX:
Yes, I saw it.
PRIME MINISTER:
Which said that Australia is now living in one of the most hostile
international trading environments it's ever faced. Now what
that means, in very simple terms is, that in order to survive in
that hostile environment, Australia has to get everything right
at home. Everything right at home. It means low interest rates.
It means low inflation. It means a reformed taxation system, and
it also means, very importantly, having a competitive waterfront.
And there can't be any ifs, buts and maybes. And when you put
all the sound and fury and noise and rhetoric and dust of the last
few days aside, one thing stands absolutely unshaken, and that is
the economic imperative of this country having an efficient waterfront.
If we are to survive in that hostile world trading environment,
if we are to sell what we need to survive, we've got to have
an efficient waterfront. And manifestly we have not had so for the
last 50 years.
CORDEAUX:
You know they are talking about a divided country and they are
calling on you to come in somehow and wave a wand and bring everybody
together. But are you surprised that when you describe that big
picture, I mean to me it is so simple and clear.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well that is what, may I say, the man and woman in the street sees
it as.
CORDEAUX:
Are you sure of that though?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I am. I don't believe the country is divided. I think
there's, and it suits my critics, and it suits the critics
of the Government and it suits the MUA's cause to say oh, shock,
horror, everybody is at everybody's throats, it's divided,
let's have another meeting. I mean we have been having meetings
for years and years and years about the waterfront. The Hawke Government
had meetings. The Prime Minister brought the pizzas into the Commonwealth
Government centre in Sydney for 48 hours at meetings. What did that
produce? It produced the expenditure of $420 million and no real
improvement in the waterfront. We still have a crane rate of 18
an hour versus that of 30 an hour from our Asian competitors. We
still have rorts, we still have overmanning to the tune of 50 per
cent. We still have a situation where you are dealing with people
who are paid $74,000 to $80,000 a year, which is double the average
wage of the people who are listening to this interview. So unless
that sort of thing is stopped, unless that is changed, unless we
get a productive waterfront. I have no objection to waterfront,
waterside workers earning $50,000, $60,000, $70,000, $80,000 even
more, provided they are productive. Let me make it clear it is not
about salary levels. It is about the level of the salary compared
with the output.
CORDEAUX:
They talked about Australia getting up there to world's best
practice. I can't see for the life of me why we can't
be ahead of world's best practice. Why can't we, in fact,
lead the world. It is only a question of saying well here is the
most important thing for Australia, we must have the most, not just
equal competitive that's on the wharves, but we must be the
best.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, of course, and what the message that comes out of that Access
Economics report clearly states is that unless we make ourselves
not only equal to the best but ahead of the best operating at the
present time, we are not going to get a reasonable share of markets
in a very hostile trading environment. I mean I can't emphasise
that too strongly. This is about our economic future, it is not
about the right of people to belong to a union, that is not at issue.
We guarantee the right of people to belong to a union if they want
to, we are the first Government at a Federal level to bring in legislation
totally outlawing discrimination as to whether or not a person is
a member or not of a trade union. This is about whether we are to
have a world class, world efficient waterfront that will underpin
the behaviour of our exporters. Now we have at the moment a threat
to our farmers, we have an American union outfit threatening retaliation
against the farm produce of Australia's hardworking farmers,
most of whom haven't seen in their lifetime $70,000 or $80,000
a year income and are now facing, they are now facing the indignity
and the humiliation and the further frustration of an international
union of conspiracy to hit them and I think that is the ultimate
in betrayal of the national interest. I mean if ever there is a
group of people in Australia who deserve our understanding and our
sympathy, it is the farmers of Australia and now as a spin-off from
this dispute, you're having unions overseas, and we are invited
to believe that they have had no encouragement at all from John
Coombs and his friends, and I think most Australians will find that
unbelievable, that these unions are now collaborating and conspiring
to damage the economic interest of Australia.
CORDEAUX:
Well the ACCC say that they are going to come down heavily on the....
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I hope the full rigour of the law is used to support Australia's
farmers and I want to make the point that the law here is being
defied in a number of respects. The law is being defied at the moment
in ports in Melbourne and in Sydney where you've got Supreme
Court orders and those orders are being defied by the MUA and their
friends, and they are being encouraged to defy those orders by Mr
Beazley and by the Premier of New South Wales. I mean our view is
that no matter who's involved, they have to obey the law and
that applies to Patrick's, it applies to the unions, it applies
to me, it applies to you. But at the moment as we speak you have
a situation where the unions are defying the law and they are being
encouraged in that defiance by the Leader of the Opposition and
by the Premier of New South Wales.
CORDEAUX:
Do you have any power to make sure that the police do, in fact,
do their job in New South Wales. Can you?
PRIME MINISTER:
In our kind of democracy the responsibility of enforcing the domestic
law of Australia is in the hands of the police. That's the
way our system operates. Everyone knows that.
CORDEAUX:
Clearly in New South Wales, they've taken a very, very lenient
line?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well there is no doubt that the New South Wales Government is encouraging
defiance of the law in that State.
CORDEAUX:
Are you doing something about that Prime Minister?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well I'm pointing it out, but bear in mind that the way our
country is structured, it is the responsibility of the police to
ensure that the law is not continuously defied and it is therefore
very much the responsibility of State Government. Now what is being
defied in Victoria, for example, is an order of the Supreme Court
of Victoria, obtained, as I understand it, by the Victorian Port
Authority and that is an agency of the Victorian Government. So
you have a situation where there you have a State law being defied,
you have an injunction of the Supreme Court of New South Wales being
defied in New South Wales and you have this sort of fiction that
in some way, well of course, it was directed against the MUA and
because other people are involved they don't have to comply
with it. I mean it beggars belief to us, the Australian public,
to accept that the MUA is not right in the heart of the defiance
that is now taking place in New South Wales, but they obviously
don't feel that any kind of risk in that State because the
Premier of New South Wales has gone down to the wharves in New South
Wales and has cheered them on and has encouraged them in that defiance.
Now whatever your views are, it is absolutely irresponsible of any
political leader, in or out of Government, to encourage defiance
of the law. I mean Patricks boss said on television last night that
he would, subject to his right of appeal, of which any person has,
he would abide by any orders of the courts. John Coombs didn't
say that, Jennie George didn't say that, Kim Beazley hasn't
said that, and Bob Carr hasn't said that.
CORDEAUX:
But what in the end do you do if you can't get the things
on and off the wharf and they obey the law selectively. As I said,
I think when this whole thing was just beginning on the horizon,
when you were in the studio the last time we spoke, I said well,
why not do a Bob Hawke? Why not send in the army?
PRIME MINISTER:
It is not the job of the Australian army to enforce the civil law
of Australia. That is the job of the police. The job of the army
is not to enforce the civil law.
CORDEAUX:
But at what point would you say, I, in the interests of this country
must do something to open the wharves and keep them open. There
must be a point.
PRIME MINISTER:
It goes without saying that issue is under constant surveillance
and it is the responsibility of the State governments and of the
State police to prevent unlawful obstructions of people going about
their lawful business. I mean, nobody is disputing the right of
members of trade unions to engage in peaceful demonstrations, to
engage in lawful, peaceful pickets. Nobody is disputing their right
to do that but I do dispute their right to stop people going about
their business and if a company has cargo which has been landed
at a wharf and the customers of that company are crying out for
that cargo and in some cases, when the cargo is medical supplies,
the customers are patients who desperately need those medical supplies,
perhaps for pain relief, it is plainly unlawful, wrong and against
everything that this country believes in for the free flow of that
cargo and the passage of those goods out of the wharves to be impeded.
Now I am not denying the right of the unions to demonstrate their
point of view. They can demonstrate it as vigorously as they like.
That is their democratic right but they have no right, according
to ordinary principles of Australian justice or an ordinary understanding
of a fair go, they had no right to impede other people's business,
nor had they the right to stop other workers going about their lawful
business. That is what is happening right at the moment and it is
conduct which is being condoned by the Leader of the Federal Opposition,
it is being condoned by the leadership of the ACTU and it is being
condoned by the New South Wales Premier. Now the responsibility
for enforcing the law rests with the police and with the State governments.
They are State laws in the main that are being defied and breached
and the civilian authority which has the responsibility to enforce
the law of course are the police forces of the various States.
CORDEAUX:
What happens if Justice Tony North, who is very familiar with this
area of activity, finds in favour of the wharfies and the 1400 sacked
Patrick workers are told to go back. What happens then?
PRIME MINISTER:
Whatever decision is made by the courts, the people have to abide
by it. I can't say to one group in the community, you abide
by the law, and to another group, you don't. I mean, that is
what Mr Beazley is doing.
CORDEAUX:
But you're not going to get another opportunity to .... about
the reform...
PRIME MINISTER:
If I could just finish. I think it is fair to say that as this
dispute, this issue goes on, you are going to have a lot of court
action and you are going to have some wins and losses on both sides.
I would imagine that whatever the outcome of Mr Justice North's
deliberations there would be an appeal and there will be, and I
will hope that appeal were resolved quite speedily. It's a
very important issue but...
CORDEAUX:
Just give me an idea of how firm you are on this?
PRIME MINISTER:
Absolutely. I mean, we are absolutely committed to having a reformed,
revitalised, more efficient Australian waterfront and it's
not because I am trying to destroy the MUA. I don't mind if
the MUA continues and flourishes. I do want to end the MUA's
monopoly and our changes to the Industrial Relations Act with the
help of Cheryl Kernot made that possible. But my objective is to
have a more competitive Australian waterfront because that will
deliver more Australian jobs, attract more investment, and boost
Australian exports in a very hostile, international trading environment.
So we are very strongly committed. Our resolve is firm. We don't
pretend it is easy and I never thought it would be easy but it is
in the long term interests of all Australians to have a more competitive
waterfront and when all the noise and dust and rhetoric dies away,
that issue still remains, and that is unless we can lift ourselves
not only to world's best practice but as you rightly say, beyond
it, we do not have a hope of surviving effectively in a very hostile
world trading environment. It makes me feel literally sick to think
that people, any Australian would be contemplating giving any support
of any kind to some kind of international boycott of Australian
farm produce.
CORDEAUX:
Well if we want more employment, the way to get it is to get an
absolutely super efficient waterfront. The benefits of that flow
on to absolutely every occupation.
PRIME MINISTER:
We are a nation that needs to trade to survive. We have seen this
huge downturn in Asia. Because of the domestic strength of the Australian
economy, we have largely protected ourselves against it but nonetheless,
we are in a much tougher international trading environment than
ever before. That's the point of the Access survey that came
out this morning. What is the response of the trade union movement?
Virtually to applaud the very thought that there is going to be
some kind of international search- and-destroy mission conducted
against Australia's farmers.
CORDEAUX:
Prime Minister, we will move onto other things. Just quickly, one
of the considerations or one of the concerns over the weekend, seems
to be the way in which Patrick's manoeuvred the corporate structure.
Now, does it concern you that some unscrupulous employer may, or
for totally dishonourable and unreasonable reasons, employ the same
sort of practice or manoeuvre?
PRIME MINISTER:
I would never pretend that every employer in Australia is a paragon
of virtue any more than I assert that every employee is. As far
as I am concerned, I am totally opposed to sharp practices by employers
just as I am opposed to militant tactics by trade unionists.
CORDEAUX:
Would you say that the Patrick's manoeuvre was a sharp practice?
PRIME MINISTER:
If people believe it is, I mean, I have not had any evidence presented
to me to suggest that it is, no. But I don't pretend to know
everything about what a company does. I do know this, that for three
years, for three years before these events unfolded, Patrick's had
been endeavouring to get the Maritime Union of Australia to honour
a number of arrangements and agreements that had been approved by
Mr Coombs, the Federal Secretary of the Union, after lengthy negotiation
with Patrick's. They have been trying for three years. I mean, this
idea that somehow or other the answer to the problem is to have
another meeting completely ignores the fact that the union and Patrick's
have been having meetings for years.
CORDEAUX:
They should remember what Laurie Brereton said about the sale of
ANL, that you couldn't give it away and the result of that
was, I would think, the union ....
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course. Everyone knows that the former Labor Government wanted
to sell ANL and in the end they didn't because Bill Kelty said
they couldn't. Mr Beazley comes along and he says, the Prime
Minister should call a meeting of all of the parties. I mean that
is just singing the song of the MUA. The MUA has been meeting Patrick's
for three years and Patrick's has been saying to them again and
again and again, in those discussions, and ultimately to the whole
workforce, has been saying, look, unless we can lift the productivity
of this outfit, unless you deliver your side of the bargain, unless
in return for the wage increases that we have delivered and the
improvements in conditions, you bring about an end to the work practices,
the company is going to go on losing money. According to Mr Corrigan
it has lost $56 million over a period of years. Now no company can
go on losing that.
I mean, that money ultimately comes from individual Australians.
It doesn't materialise out of thin, corporate air. It comes
ultimately from other Australians. If it is borrowed from a bank,
it comes from the funds of the banks' lenders or depositors.
I mean, you are dealing here with black and white assets and you
are dealing here with a situation that no company can be expected
after years and years of negotiations just to put up with it indefinitely
because they don't have bottomless pits for pockets.
CORDEAUX:
Prime Minister the question that was asked of me, and I think it
is a damn good one, we talk about there being voluntary unionism
in this country, and nobody is allowed to do the no-ticket-no-start
routine, yet it was pointed out to me, you can't go to university.
You have to be a member of the students union if you want to go
to university.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we have a policy at a federal level of endeavouring to outlaw
that but because universities are under state law we don't
have direct say in it unless we start using the financial route
in order to bring that about and there are a lot of short comings
about that which don't make it very attractive.
CORDEAUX:
But it's wrong, isn't it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well it's wrong in principle and there are some State/Coalition
Governments, I think the West Australian Government is a good example,
that has taken action to change it and I applaud the Western Australian
Government for what it has done in that respect but it is quite
wrong in principle, yes.
CORDEAUX:
Prime Minister, later on today I understand you will be making an
announcement about additional funding for Medicare offices. We already
know that Medicare offices, it was announced last week, it's
going to be a sort of one stop shop. You are allocating extra funding,
I understand?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, Dr Wooldridge will be announcing a very significant expansion
of the Medicare easyclaim system. Now this is a self-service claiming
procedure which has been installed in hundreds of pharmacies throughout
Australia as an alternative to a Medicare office. It's largely
been installed to date in rural and regional areas but in 1996...
1997 there was some also put into outer metropolitan areas but we've
now decided to invest a further $10 million and then we are going
to open another 200 Medicare Easyclaim self-service facilities in
the local pharmacies and Dr Wooldridge will be announcing details
about locations etc. And that will bring to a total of 600, which
is a very large number, of these facilities throughout Australia
and they are very cheap and effective. They mean that within, although
you can't pick up a cheque at the pharmacy, you can within
a period of days get a cheque in the mail or have a deposit made
to your bank account.
Now you can imagine that with a facility like this, you can have
a lot more of them because they are not very expensive to establish.
We have found it necessary in some of the major population areas
in the city to rationalise the existing Medicare offices. Now these
will become a major substitute but more importantly, in many areas
of Australia, in the regional and rural areas of Australia that
have never seen a Medicare office, this will give them a Medicare
facility which is almost as good as a Medicare office in areas of
Australia that have never, ever seen them. I think it will be a
move that is very welcome. It will bring to 600, and there will
be another 200 within that 600 figure, attributable to the announcement
of another $10 million programme. And when you add that to the announcement
that Dr Wooldridge made last week whereby people can simultaneously
claim at either a Medicare office or the office of a private health
insurance fund for their total claims, in other words both their
doctors bills and also their hospital bills, it will eliminate another
irritant that many people feel is involved in the process of obtaining
refunds and getting value for money out of their private health
insurance.
CORDEAUX:
Prime Minister, great to talk to you. Thank you for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Thank you very much.
ENDS