E&OE....................................................
MITCHELL:
Mr Howard, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning, Neil. Nice to be with you again.
MITCHELL:
Well, thanks for being there so early.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I could have come even an hour earlier.
MITCHELL:
There's a bit of a cough there. You're not ill, are you?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, no, I'm not. I'm as fit as anything.
MITCHELL:
Good. Now, will the Queensland election this weekend effect your
timing of an election?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, it won't.
MITCHELL:
Why not?
PRIME MINISTER:
Because it's a Queensland election and Australia has long
had separate State political cultures. There's an old saying
in Australian politics that quite often Queenslanders vote differently,
vote as Queenslanders in Queensland elections and they vote as Australians
in Federal elections. And I don't believe that the outcome,
whatever it will be and I don't know what it will be, is going
to influence what I do, the timing of what I do. The timing of what
I do will be dictated by national political considerations, will
be dictated by the desirability of fixing up the native title mess,
the need to press ahead with reform to the Australian taxation system
and a willingness to maintain our resolve on economic matters in
the face of a very difficult world economic environment.
MITCHELL:
Nobody knows what will happen in Queensland but as such an experienced
political campaigner as yourself, what do you expect? I was just
talking to another experienced political campaigner, Laurie Oakes,
who's quite convinced that seats will be won and they could
well hold the balance of power, One Nation. Do you think that's
a possibility?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I'm not going to make a prediction 24 hours out. I really
don't know the opinion polls, of which there have been many.
I don't know how reliable some of them are - are indicating
support for One Nation. I think it is too early, particularly with
the rather unusual, optional preferential voting system where people
do not have to extend their preferences. That, of course, is quite
different federally. I'm not going to hazard a guess at this
stage. I simply say to the people of Queensland that ultimately
it is a choice between either a Borbidge government or a Beattie
government. And if you are on the conservative side of politics
in Queensland and you don't want a Labor government you should,
by preference, vote Liberal or National. If you can't vote
for them, well, give your second preference to them otherwise you'll
end up with a Labor government. Now, that is ultimately still the
choice and I would hope that Queenslanders, when they vote tomorrow,
will bear that very much in mind.
MITCHELL:
How detrimental would it be to Australia's international standing
if One Nation was to win seats in Queensland and, in fact, hold
the balance of power?
PRIME MINISTER:
The only thing that will really be detrimental to Australia's
international standing would be if people overseas thought the Government
of Australia held views that were hostile to them.
MITCHELL:
But you don't think it would be a message that the new right
has some power in Australia?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, look, I think that can be over-exaggerated. I don't want
to see One Nation win seats anywhere in Australia, I don't,
any more than I want to see some other parties like the Australian
Democrats and the Australian Greens have influence because their
influence has been very negative.
MITCHELL:
But you would put One Nation in the same basket as the Democrats
and the Greens.
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no. They're a difference group altogether. But I'm
simply saying that this idea that there aren't other parties
around that have negative policies is misplaced. Now, there are
some policies of One Nation, of course, that are totally unacceptable
to me. Absolutely. Any reliance on issues relating to race, any
suggestion that policies should be determined on that basis have
always been unacceptable. But you make an enormous mistake, I don't
mean you, personally, but I think people make an enormous mistake
in thinking that the only people who are attracted to One Nation
are people who are intolerant. There are a lot of ordinary, decent
Australians who feel a sense of insecurity in a time of economic
change and social change and they somehow or other think there's
a way out of that and they listen to simplistic solutions like offers
of two per cent interest rates on bank loans. Now, anybody who thinks
for 30 seconds will know that that is undeliverable. But if you're
an unemployed person in rural Queensland and you have no hope of
getting a job and you think the industry that you once worked for
is gone because of import competition and somebody comes along and
says: look, I can solve your problem with a two per cent interest
rate loan - you listen. Whereas if you're employed and doing
well, you immediately dismiss it as being a ridiculous proposition.
Now, I think we have to get out there and talk. I'm speaking
for my Party and the National Party. I think we've got to get
out there and talk to those people and listen to them.
MITCHELL:
Isn't it a bit late, though? I mean, do you think you should
have been doing it earlier?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, people can always say that. I mean, the initial reaction
of many commentators was that anybody who was attracted to One Nation
was simply a racist. That was mistaken. If people have made mistakes
in relation to One Nation, it's not only the political leaders
who have made mistakes but there are a lot of other people who've
made mistakes, but whether you have or you haven't, that's
the past.
MITCHELL:
Well, do you feel you have or not?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don't. I believe that if I had come in much harder at
the beginning that probably would have given her more prominence
in the beginning and I don't think the result would have been
any different.
MITCHELL:
The interpretation of a speech yesterday is that a double dissolution
is the way you will go. Is that correct? Will an lection, any election,
be a double dissolution?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Neil, like any other Prime Minister I'll keep my options
open on that. Nothing has really changed. Some people got mistakenly
excited about some remarks I made on radio the other night. I just
simply make it clear again, of course the option of a double dissolution
is there. You know how strongly I feel about getting the native
title mess fixed up. And unless the minor parties and the Labor
Party in the Senate change their position and pass our Native Title
Bill, the only way to fix up that mess - because the Senate's
rejected it twice - is to put it to a joint sitting after the next
election. Now, that remains the position. The question of ultimately
what I do in relation to a double dissolution or otherwise is something
I'll decide further down the track. And no Prime Minister in
Australian history has said, this far out, precisely what he or
she was going to do.
MITCHELL:
This far out. So it's a way off, is it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, next week's a way off. But don't read anything
into that either. I mean, we are in this sort of situation - you
can't say anything, you know. But, I mean, it really is quite
extraordinary. Neil, the trigger is there for a double dissolution.
I think the Australian people know how important native title is.
But, as any Prime Minister, I obviously have always intended to
keep my options open but people shouldn't underestimate or
misread my determination to fix the native title mess. It's
very important, particularly to the people of Queensland and to
the people of Western Australia.
MITCHELL:
Do you accept, though, a double dissolution would increase the
possibility of One Nation winning Senate seats and possibly holding
a balance of power in the Senate?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the quota would be lower, yes.
MITCHELL:
Does that concern you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it concerns me, yes. That does concern me. That would be
a concern. On the other hand, if the Government were to throw in
the towel on native title that would send a very powerful signal
to the people of rural Australia that we don't care about them.
MITCHELL:
It would be very hard to govern with One Nation having the balance
of power.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we've had to govern with a lot of people in the past
that have made it difficult for us. I find Senator Harradine, although
he's a reasonable man on many issues to deal with and I admire
him greatly, I find him not too bad to deal with. I find the antics
of the Democrats and the Greens on issues where we have a clear
mandate, quite obstructive. I mean, we went to the people at the
last election saying we'd sell one-third of Telstra and they
deliberately tried to frustrate that. In a whole range of areas
we have faced obstruction. But I just think you have to understand
that the nature of the Senate voting system is that it will always
throw up minority parties. We have to live with that. It's
a more difficult situation for us because the minority parties at
the present time are parties left of centre. And that, of course,
means that when we are in government the combination of those minor
parties and the Labor Party makes life very difficult for us.
MITCHELL:
Well, do you think there's a realistic chance of One Nation
having seats in the Senate after the next election?
PRIME MINISTER:
I think it's too early to make any prediction about that.
MITCHELL:
We'll take some calls if that's all right. Jane, go ahead
please.
CALLER:
Hello, Mr Howard. I just want to speak about a couple of things.
I listen to Pauline Hanson and I hear what she has to say. The first
thing is that I have never ever heard her say that she doesn't
like Greeks, Italians, Vietnamese or anybody or that they shouldn't
be here. All she says is that we're short of jobs in Australia
and we shouldn't be bringing in any more unskilled migrants.
And, secondly, she doesn't say she doesn't like Aboriginals.
All she says is that ATSIC should have to account for every penny
that is given to them and say where it goes.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it's true that she has said those things that you have
just mentioned. But it is also true that she has said that Australia
is being flooded with Asians. You know as well as I do that when
you say a country is being flooded with people of a particular racial
background that is calculated to put a focus on those people unfairly.
I don't object for a moment to a decent debate about immigration
levels. I certainly listen to arguments about waste of money, be
it in ATSIC or anywhere else. And, indeed, I was very critical of
the Aboriginal Affairs policy of the former Labor government but
I have never made the claim that this country is being flooded with
this or that particular group. And language like that can be used
to generate unnecessary fear within the Australian community. I
believe in a tolerant, harmonious Australian community. I believe
that all Australians, irrespective of their background, must be
treated equally. Now, I know that on occasions she has said that
as well. But I do think that when you go around saying that a country
is being flooded with people of a particular group, that is calculated
to give the impression that - or is calculated to create fear and
concern and, perhaps, hostility to that group within the community
and I don't think that is acceptable.
MITCHELL:
Thanks, Jane. Rodney, go ahead please.
CALLER:
Hello, Mr Howard.
PRIME MINISTER:
Rodney.
CALLER:
How are you?
PRIME MINISTER:
Good.
CALLER:
I would thought you would have learnt from the Joh for PM'
campaign in 87. Wouldn't it be best that... well, place
her last on the ballot sheet? We've been discredited in Asia
and...
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't think... can I just take on this Asian stuff about
being discredited in Asia straight away and say how apologetic and
defeatist and negative that is about our country. If ever a country
over the last few months has not been discredited in Asia, it is
Australia. Under my Government, this country has been a good friend
of many countries in Asia. It has helped them in their time of need.
Our reputation in Asia stands taller now than I believe it has stood
for several years because we have been a genuine friend and just
because there has been some odd article in a particular journal
in one country in Asia talking about Pauline Hanson or talking about
this or that, does not alter the balance of very favourable opinion
that flows through from all sources within the Asia Pacific region,
that sees Australia as a proud independent country willing to help
in Asia's time of need, but not apologising in any way for
its own democratic processes. Of course we have a range of opinions
in this country and Asian countries have got to understand that
that is the Australian way. They've got to understand that
we are a democracy and people are entitled to express their point
of view but what matters is the collective Australian image and
the collective Australian image in Asia is very positive.
CALLER:
Good morning, Neil. Good morning Prime Minister. Mr Howard, I think
there is a perception amongst a lot of average people out there,
and I think this is the appeal of One Nation, that there is a large
block of unemployed people who have no interest in looking for work
and yet are handsomely compensated. At the other end of the spectrum,
you have the very rich who are then able to minimise their tax,
and yet the average worker seems to be getting shafted....
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that is a marvellous commercial, may I say, for tax reform.
CALLER:
Yes and I hope you will go ahead with that.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we certainly will, and I notice incidentally though that
Mrs Hanson is against it.
MITCHELL:
Against a GST is she?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, she said that yesterday. I mean you can't have decent
tax reform in Australia without a broad-based indirect tax. I mean
you are not even in the game if you are not prepared to entertain
that. Now, it's very interesting that the caller should make
that point, yet he really is in a sense arguing against the sort
of proposition that she's now putting forward. I mean, people,
once you start being taken at all seriously on the Australian political
scene you then immediately become accountable for what you are saying.
I mean, it's all right, you can be a fringe player when nobody
thinks you are going to win anything and you can say anything you
like, but once you start being a serious competitor for office,
then the remarks you make about policy are quite properly scrutinised.
MITCHELL:
Is that what's happening to Pauline Hanson now is it?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I think it is, and I think that's fair enough.
MITCHELL:
Did you notice she said the other day, she'd like to be Prime
Minister one day?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, that's fair enough. A lot of people want to be Prime
Minister.
MITCHELL:
Do you think she's got a show?
PRIME MINISTER:
No.
MITCHELL:
Mr Howard I notice that John Singleton who ran that advertising
campaign against the GST back in 93 for Labor, has now joined
the Business Council to promote the GST. You're not going to
sign him up too are you?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, we're not. It's a very interesting development though.
That campaign is independent of the Government. It's a very
interesting development though, very interesting, because he was
as you say, the advertising guru for the Labor Party for many years
and presumably wrote and authorised and promoted the anti-GST campaign
in 1993, so it's a very very interesting, and I guess from
the point of view of those who want tax reform, a very positive
development. Now, I'm not going to try and say anymore than
that. It's a decision he's made and a contract he's
entered into with the Business Council, but I do just say that we
desperately need tax reform in this country. And one of the reasons
why, if I can go back to the earlier discussion, I think one of
the reason why there is a transient appeal of new parties to the
Australian people is that sometimes they see the combat between
the two major parties as being too much composed of petty point
scoring and not enough serious political debate. And tax reform
is a very good example of that. In their earlier positions, both
Kim Beazley and Gareth Evans have strongly supported taxation reform,
they strongly supported Paul Keating when he pushed for that in
the middle 1980s and deep down
I think a lot of Australians feel that rather than the Labor Party
just automatically oppose what we are doing on tax, they join the
debate and they embrace the need for tax reform.
MITCHELL:
Before the election they did say they believed there was all this
money to be gathered by clamping down on some of the rorts. Have
you, or has your Government, clamped down on the rorts as toughly
as you should?
PRIME MINISTER:
We certainly have, and on that score about before the last election,
I notice Gareth Evans said, perhaps on your programme the other
day, that they were only told about it a month before the election.
That really does stretch credibility. You've been in power
for 13 years, and only a month before you are thrown out of office,
are you told by the tax office that there is $800 million of avoided
tax to be collected. I think that is really asking the Australian
public to believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden.
MITCHELL:
Is the $800 million there, and if so, how much are we getting now?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, we are getting some hundreds of millions of dollars as a
result of our clamp down on tax avoidance practices by high wealth
individuals. The advice we had when we came to office was that the
$800 million figure was nowhere near as solid as the former government
had suggested. But we have changed a number of things, some of them
opposed by the Labor Party to remove tax avoidance, particularly
in the area of some of the R&D syndicates where there were blatant
levels of tax avoidance. The Labor Party in fact voted against measures
to clamp down on those tax avoidance practices. We are very committed
to seeing that both ends pay their fair share so that the middle
gets a better break.
MITCHELL:
Tell me, Mr Howard, have you told Peter Costello to work harder?
Because he told me that he reckons the tax package was several months
off?
PRIME MINISTER:
Look, it's this old game of you know, what's a week,
what's a months, what's a....
MITCHELL:
Well, a month is four weeks.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, it will be out fairly soon.
MITCHELL:
All right, so he's working harder is he?
PRIME MINISTER:
He's always worked hard, he works very hard. I mean, look
at the terrific job he's done with the Budget.
MITCHELL:
Interest rates have gone up at the ANZ and St George. Are the banks
being a bit greedy putting them up?
PRIME MINISTER:
I don't want to talk about the future levels of interest rates
at all. The fundamentals of the Australian economy remain very strong.
And it is very important that that be borne in mind as we go through
this rather turbulent period, and I think it is also fair to bear
in mind how more weak and more vulnerable Australia would have been
if my Government had not taken the corrective economic measures
it did when it came to office. But I'm not going to talk about
the behaviour of the banks and I'm not going to talk about
future levels of either interest rates or the exchange rate.
MITCHELL:
I understand that entirely. Have you advised Mr Costello that he
shouldn't because he did it on this programme, and the dollar