Fax from U
23 January 1997 TRANSCRIPT OF THE PRIME MINISTER
THE HON. JOHN HOWARD MP
RADIO INTERVIEW WITH ALAN JONES RADIO 2 UE
E & OE
JONES: Prime Minister, good morning.
PRIME MINISTER:
Good morning Alan,
JONES:
Happy new year to you.
PRIME MINISTER:
And to you too.
JONES: It's going to be a tough year, isn't it?
PRIE MINISThR:
Yes but that's what's involved in this Kind ofjob and this native title issue is one of tile
most difficult any government is likely to face. There are many groups in the
community, the Aborigines, the farmers and the miners and the broader Australian
community who have all got legitimate concerns and interests and it's not an issue that
is going to be solved by any party grandstanding or any individuals in the community
Fafrri23/ 01/ 97 11: 52 Pg: 1
Fax from who are not affected and who don't have any authority to take decisions giving sort of
unctuous moral lectures about what ought to happen.
JONES: Who has been doing that?
PRIME MNISTER:
I think there's a tendency for some in the community to sort of say to the Government,
well, you know, if you do this the world will come to an end. Let me make it very
clear that we have taken no decision on this. I consulted the State governments
yesterday. I will1 consult and negotiate with the Aboriginal leaders and also with the
farming and mining leaders and after that process has been finished, the Government
will then examine what it is going to do and..
JONES: How long will that process last, do you think?
PRIME MINISTER:
I hope it will only be a matter of a few weeks. People want certainty...
JONES: I was just going to ask you that.
PRIME NMNISTER:
Can I say your introductory remark put the finger right on it-We have this problem
because the former Government legislated on the basis that the grant of a pastoral lease
extinguished native title. The recital to the Nativ Title Act contained that clear,
unambiguous statement, Now that's the reason we've got a problem and that's why
the option of doing nothing is simply not available.
JONES:
What then do you say in simple language to Australians today who know that your
predecessor, and I am sure in all sincerity in order to secure " certainty" said validated,
freehold grants, residential, commercial and pastoral or agricultural leases will
extinguish native title. Won't they expect that to be honoured?
PRIM MINISTER:
I would understand if people did want that honoured and let me answer it another way,
the fact that that has now been thrown into doubt, or not only thrown into doubt,
futher than that, in fact has been in part repudiated by the High Court in the Wik
decision, it does create an entirely new situation. Not a new situation in the sense of
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Fax from us revising the original High Court decision which abolished the doctrine of Terra
Nullu. I do accept and my Government accepts that there is such a thing as native
title and we respect that but what we are concerned about and what we must address is
that native title is now a different thing, a bigger thing, a potentially more expansive
thing than the Australian people were told it was by the then Prime Minister in 1993.
JONES: And that's because we have a bigger problem than even the one you've outlined, don't
we. The public are wondering who runs the country, the Government or the Hfigh
Court.
PRIMKE MMNSTER:
Well the answer to that is very simple. The Government runs the country, or let me
say, the people through the Government run the country. I don't run... the Australian
people elect me. I am beholden to them. I am not a law unto myself. The Hfigh Court
of Australia has a responsibility of interpreting the law, We have the responsibility to
make it and if the interpretation, the current interpretation of the law is believed by the
Government of the day to be contrary to the public interest, then in accordance with
the Constitution, that Government has a perfect right indeed an obligation to change
that law.
JONES: Many decisions would have been made, wouldn't they, on the basis of the categorical
assurance that Prime Minister Keating gave the Australian nation?
PVIE MINISTER:
Oh yes, oh yes.
JONES: Now let me put it another way. What Prime Minister...
PRIME MINISTER:
Many, many, many leases...
JONES: I beg your pardon?
PRIME MINISTER:
including many leases which have been granted since the first of January 1994.
Farxom 23/ 01/ 97 11: 52 PS: 4
Fax from JONES: So isn't it then encumbered upon you to honour your predecessor's assurance in
legislation? PRIM MINISTER:
Well Alan I don't want to because I haven't finally decided what I am going to do and
the Government hasn't addressed it as a Government, I don't want to sort of make
firm, clear definitive statements until I have talked to everybody. I would be accused
by some people of bad faith if I..
JONES: Sure, I understand that. Well let me put it to you another way...
PIME MINISTER:
what the Aboriginal community has got to say. They are entitled to be heard. They
indeed, some of them are entitled to say that the Native Title Act so far hasn't worked
to help them very much.
JONES: Sure. PRIME MINISTER:
There's only been one claim determined. There are hundreds outstanding and the Act
has been in existence now for over three years.
JONES: Yes and indeed, we had a native title grant, a native title decision in relation to a
property in New South Wales...
IPRIME MINISTER:
accused by some people of bad faith,
JONES: Right, sure I understand that. Let me put it to you another way.
PRIME MINISTER:
I do want to hear what the Aboriginal community has got to say. They are entitled to
be heard. They indeed, some of them are entitled to say that the Native Title Act so far
hasn't worked to help them... Faoxm 23/ 81/ 97 11: 52 Pg:
Fax from JONES:
Yeah, sure.
PRIME MINISTER:
There's only been one claim determined. There are hundreds outstanding and the Act
has been in existence now for over three years.
JONES: Yes, and indeed we had a native title grant, a native title decision, in relation to a
property in New South Wales at Crescent Head.
PRIME MINSTER:
That's right.
JONES: When that native title decision was made and title was granted by the courts we then
found that that was actually sold. So they'd established that they bad an inalienable
right to the land but that right actually could be bought by the Government if you paid
the right price. Does this raise some suspicions as to whether we're in it for spiritual
reasons or for money?
PRIM1E MINISTER:
Oh, well I don't want to make a broad, rash judgement. I suppose it depends upon the
individual. There would be some people who would be concerned entirely about the
economics of it, there'd be people who'd be concerned about the economics of
something else, but I suppose in that sense they're no different from other sections of
the Australian community...
JONES: As I said to you before...
PRIME NMISTER:
that land as an economic asset as well as giving them some kind of security. Now
that applies to all of us I guess.
JONES: But as I said to you before, you see, there are many Australians who are going to die
with never having had title to anything because on $ 350 a week they can't afford a
house and they can't afford a car. Faoxm 23/ 01/ 97 11: 52 Pg: 6
fa fram 23/ 01/ 97 11: 52 Pg: 7
PIME MINISTER:
That's right.
JONES: They get public transport and they rent. They now find though that some people can,
in fact, be awarded native tidle and then sell it for $ 800,000. Now a caller to the
programme early this morning said ' aren't these sorts of developments fostering a kind
of sense of discrimination that we're trying to remove?'
PREIE MINISTER:
Well, Alan, I can understand people having all sorts of feelings because of the
confusion that has been created in this whole area. I mean, native title itself was a very
unusual concept because for almost 200 years we'd operated on the basis that there
was no such thing as native title and in good faith people had been granted leasehold
estates. We were told that they were unaffected, we are now told that leaseholders
who acquired leases in good faith, perhaps their grandparents in the last century
acquire leasehold estates in good faith, now find that they may have to do co-exist on
those leasehold estates with other people. It is a very confusing situation.-.
JONES: Can I just, can we just...
PR3M MINSTER:
What I'm trying to do is calmly..
JONES: Yes. PRIME MINISTER:
and with justice to all parties reach an understanding and determine the direction in
which I'm going to take.
JONES: Yeah, and the tone of your remarks this morning, might I say, confirms that. Could I
just end this then, Pimie Mnister, in another way perhaps because what Prime
Ministers say to the nation is virtually a prospectus. It sets out in the public's mind the
truth about a given issue. Now if a company misleads or erroneously States or
deceives or distorts the truth they're taken to the cleaners, directors can be jailed.
Now I come back to the point, and you've answered this in one way but I'd just like
you to make a final comment about it in all sincerity Mr Keating sought the passage of
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the Mabo Legislation by issuing is prospectus to the nation and it contained the
assurance that pastoral leases extinguished native title. Can there be any resiling from
that position?
PRIE MINISTER:
Well I'll answer that in another way, as I did before, the Australian people having now
been told that that representation is wrong and having been told that by the High Court
of Australia, they are entitled to say to their Government ' will you go back to the
drawing board and sort this out and give us a set of laws which are fair to everybody
but deliver us certainty'. In other words, our responsibility now is to look at this thing
afresh recognising, as I said a moment ago, that there is an element in our law now
called native title, we're not going back on that but it's the extent of that native title
and the aptitude of that native title which is now at issue. We did believe that a
pastoral lease superseded it. Everything you said about the prospectus is right. That
was the whole basis of the Keating legislation. We now find that is not the case and
we owe it to the Australian people...
JONES: And you'll try to resolve it in some weeks?
PRI[ ME MINISTER:
In a way that is fair to the Aboriginal people, but also in a way that is fair to the
farmers and miners and is also, by delivering economic certainty and therefore the
potential for creating jobs, fair to all of the Australian people.
JONES: Good. One final thing, nothing to do with Mabo. HMAS Voyager was cut in two
after a collision with the aircraft carrier Melbourne and that was way back in 1964 82
were killed. Governments paid damages to all survivors on board the Voyager. It was
our worst peace time, maritime disaster. We've got a 57-year-old William Maclean
has throat cancer that he attributes to excessive drinking and smoking to overcome the
post-traumatic stress of the Voyager disaster. He actually was awarded after a trial, a
six week trial, $ 1.7 million in damages. Your Government is appealing the damages
and have forced a retrial. Is that the compassionate thing to be doing?
PRIE MINISTER:
It is a matter before the courts. Let me say two things, I think the appeal was actually
commenced before the change of Government, I'm not saying that in any critical
fashion, I may be wrong about that but I think it possibly was. I will be examining that
matter. I don't...
JONES: He's got a tracheostomny, he can't even speak.
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PRIME MINISTER:
Alan, Alan, I will be examining the matter. I can't say any more than that.
JONES: Okay.
PRIME MINISTER:
For reasons I hope you'll understand.
JONES: I do.
PRIME MINISTER:
Okay. JONES: I hope you're not out to kill him.
PRIME MINISTER:
I will be examining the matter Aan.
JONES: Okay, get back to you. Thank you for your time.
PRJME MINISTER:
Thank you, bye.
ends