25 September 1996
E&OE.........................
MARTIN:
Prime Minister thanks for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Very nice to be here Ray.
MARTIN:
Now why are you meddling wantonly in the internal affairs of China?
PRIE MINISTER:
Well I'm not.
MARTIN:
It's What they say you are doing.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I think they've created a problem out of nothing. I mean, it was never on for the Prime Minister of Australia not to meet the Dalai Lama. I am going to meet him and, he is a religious leader of some consequence....
MARTIN:
He's also a political leader.
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, well that's not, you know, it is not uncommon for religious leaders to also be a bit political on occasions.
MARTIN:
The Chinese see him as a traitor and a troublemaker.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don't see him in those terms and what I simply say is thathere is no reason why my extending the normal courtesy of meeting him shoul, ect the relationship between Australia and China. I've made that clear to the Chinese.
MARTIN:
But they've made it clear that they will, that there is a price to pay.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I hope they don't carry through with that threat but I don't bow to threats. No
self-respecting Prime Minister of this country will ever bow to that kind of threat.
MARTIN: Is it worth it though PM?
PREIME MINISTER:
Yes it is.
MARTIN:
In terms of a short meeting with the Dalai Lama that you may freeze out Australian
banks and business for a year?
SEP 25 ' 96 19: 55P.
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I don't believe it will be that bad, but yes... well, the answer is yes it is worth it
because the upholding of the principles on which this country is built is always more
important than the possibility of some transient commercial difficulty, always more
important.
MARTIN: All right, now should Jewish Australians be protected from the words of people like
historian David Irving?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, whether he is here or overseas, his words reach.., let me say, I think David Irving
is, to put it bluntly, a crack-pot historian, Anybody who says that the holocaust didn't
occur is a nlutter.
MARTIN:
But beyond that, if you were a Jewish Australian and you lost loved ones and family
and Mum and Dad etc... it is more than just a nutter, it's hurtful and hateful.
PRIME MINISTER:
Of course it is. Now, look, you are asking me whether if he applies again will we
admit him. The answer is that will be considered according to the criteria and I'm not
going to pre-empt what that decision will be. He hasn't even made the application yet.
There was an element of opportunism and gimmickry in his jumping on the television
yesterday and I'm not going to play his game of opportunism and gimmickry.
MARTIN: All right don't play that, but did you support him being banned before, personally, did
John Howard support that?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I wasn't the Leader of the Opposition at that time. I don't know if I was asked.
I don't know that I1th ink it is one of those things that is always a difficult choice
between on the one hand upholding -the principle of Voltaire that I don't agree with
what he says but I'll defend his right to say it, and also recognising that a significant
section of the community can be offended by words. They are always difficult calls
those. I'm not going to debate the merits of an application that's yet to be lodged. It
will be lodged, so he says, and it will be dealt with but...
MARTIN: What are the merits John? P. 6
SEP 25 ' 96 19: 56 P. 7
PRIME MINISTER:
What are what merits?
MARTIN: What are the merits of him comning here and talking in Australia? You said
( inaudible)...
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, the merits of his application.
MARTIN: What are the merits? What are the merits to someone coming here and saying the
sorts of things he says?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well Ray, I'm not going to debate an application that hasn't been lodged. Now come
on, I've said that.
MARTIN: All right. Should Australians, other Australians Aboriginals and Asians be
protected from people like Pauline Hanson?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, are you saying that somebody shouldn't be allowed to say what she said? I
would say in a country such as Australia people should be allowed to say that. I'm not
going to respond specifically to what she said because I don't announce the policies of
my Government by reference to the speech of another. If you want to ask me
questions about my Government's policy on immigration or Aboriginal Affairs or
anything like that, I'm very happy to answer your question.
MARTIN: All right. Is Australia in danger of being swamped by Asians?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I don't believe that. We have a non-discriminatory immigration policy in this
country. The level of that immigration in the composition of it between skilled and
family reunion is always something that can be altered according to the national
interest, but...
SEP 25 ' 96 19: 56 P. E
MARTIN:
Well, should we stop immigration as she says?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well we reduced immigration only a couple of months ago.
MARTIN: Should we stop until we get unemployed fixed?
PRIME MINISTER:
Ray, we, by definition, have said that it shouldn't be stopped altogether, but we've said
it should be less and we've reduced it. I do believe there is a link between the high
level of unemployment amongst certain groups in Australia and some past immigration
levels in the composition of our programme in the past.
MARTIN: Would you blame Asian immigration for our unemployment levels?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, I'm not blaming immigration from any particular source. I think I do blame the
composition. I think it got out of whack and I think there's been too great an
emphasis which we have addressed...
MARTIN: What is that, too many Asians?
PRIME MINISTER:
No, no, too big a composition in the family reunion component and too little in the
skills area where people find it easier to get employment.
MARTIN: Should we abandon, as she says, multiculturalism?
PRIM MINISTER:
Well, I believe in a diverse society and I think this country has been enriched by that
diversity. I also believe that overriding people's individual ethnic commitments should
be a commitment to Australia and the core values of this country. Now, that's my
view.
SEP 25 ' 96 19: 56
MARTIN:
So you're in favour of the current policy?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, I'm in favour of what I've just said. See different people ascribe different meanings to things like nmulticulturalism and that's the problem with one of these debates.
MARTIN:
All right, your speech at the weekend, you said that since the Howard Government came into office, effectively for six months, the pall of censorship has been lifted. What censorship did we have?
PRIME MINISTER:
If you disagreed with the former Government you were punished. I mean, I know l ots
of people who felt intimnidated out of expressing their views on certain things because
they felt that to do so was to have yourself branded as a racist or a bigot or somebody
who was prejudiced.
MARTIN: In today's paper Jeff Kennett disagrees with...
PRIM MINISTER:
Jeff and I periodically, we periodically disagree on some things.
MARTIN:
He says we always have had great debate and free talk.
PRIM MINISTER:
Well, we disagree occasionally on things but that shows what a tolerant party the
Liberal Party is.
MARTIN: The Liberal Party wasn't so tolerant of Pauline Hanson before the election. Did you
agree with kicking her out?
PRIE MINISTER:
Yes.
SEP 25 ' 96 19: 57
MARI: Would you have her back in the party now with what she said?
PRIM MINISTER:
Well, she's not interested in coming back and I don't think the issue arises.
MARTIN: Well, isn't that hypocritical as it has been accused?
PRIME MINISTER:
Well how's it hypocritical?
MARTIN: Well you said something about free speech and you kicked her out of the party.
PRIME MINISTER:
But we had a right to do that because we disagreed with what she said.
MARTIN: But wasn't that free speech?
PRIME MINISTER:
Yes, but it was also a free exercise of our authority to withdraw an endorsement.
MARTIN: Some people have said that your speech at the weekend was an endorsement of Mrs
Hanson's comments, was it?
PRIME MINISTER:
That speech had nothing to do with Pauline Hanson. People know that the views that
I expressed on free speech and political correctness were expressed long before, long
before Pauline Hanson made her maiden speech in Parliament. She had a right to say
what she thought. I will say what I believe, I'm not going to say what I believe
through the prism of responding to what somebody else has said.
MARTIN: But you do it almost everyday in Parliament. If it's Kim Beazley or Paul Keating you
do it. Why don't you.,.?
SEP 25 ' 96 19: 57
PRIME MINISTER:
Well, Kim Beazley is the alternative Prime Minister of Australia and Paul Keating's the
former Prime Minister. I think they are in a different situation than an Independent
member of Parliament.
MARTIN: All right John Howard, thanks for your time.
PRIME MINISTER:
Pleasure.